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A second vote

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Re: A second vote

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:49 pm

shootist wrote:Perhaps we could have a discussion on, or even a referendum on, the meaning of 'meaning'. Or could we be full members on odd numbered days and out of it on even numbered days? These seem to be about the only options that haven't been put forward by some or other well meaning and sincere expert.


Ah, well, we are all fed up of experts...
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Re: A second vote

Postby atticus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:51 pm

Is shooter aware that there are more odd numbered days in the year than even? And that there is an extra odd numbered day every fourth year?
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Re: A second vote

Postby shootist » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:05 pm

atticus wrote:Is shooter aware that there are more odd numbered days in the year than even? And that there is an extra odd numbered day every fourth year?


Of course. But then that could easily be solved by another referendum on leaving the Gregorian Calendar. Indeed, such a campaign should be demanded upon the need for equality in all things. I think I am beginning to feel outraged. Let's be right here, you address the question in the third person, thus demonstrating the inequality between the first and third persons outnumbering the second person. Where's the democracy in that? And all because we are leaving the EU. Yes, outrage is now simmering in the pot, and should be ready in time for supper.
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Re: A second vote

Postby dls » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:39 am

It is a rather futile and stupid ampaign.

A deal is negotiated (with luck). The people are given a chance to reject it. They do. Other things being equal we simply fallout of the EU (hardest Brexit imaginable)

They seem to think that we would have the option of staying within the EU. Perhaps, politically, this might be possible, but surely thiswould be on a basis to be negotiated - what about the Euro, and the Schengen agreement and the budget contributions? We could guarantee a further prolonged period of negotiation toward a deal. The details of that deal not having been within the reasonable foreseeability of the electorate when the vote was taken, we should no doubt have a further vote.

It is an essential bit of the logic of this on any vote to negotiate, the final details cannot be available. To complain that those details were not available at the time of the vote, and that therefore the vote needs to be retaken is simply absurd.

Had we voted to stay in, it would have very considerably weakened our standing within the EU. No doubt the conseuences of such a condition would have resulted in all sorts of changes to which our objections would have very much less weight. To pretend that we would have known what would have happened if we voted to stay in is just that - a preposterous pretence.
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Re: A second vote

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:09 am

dls wrote:It is a rather futile and stupid ampaign.

A deal is negotiated (with luck). The people are given a chance to reject it. They do. Other things being equal we simply fallout of the EU (hardest Brexit imaginable)

They seem to think that we would have the option of staying within the EU. Perhaps, politically, this might be possible, but surely thiswould be on a basis to be negotiated - what about the Euro, and the Schengen agreement and the budget contributions?


Surely if we withdraw the Article 50 notice, then we would remain in the EU on the same terms as before. While the treaty is ambiguous on whether we can or not, we could always fall back to the position that we had not met our constitutional requirements and the notice was invalid: the EU is not in a position to argue as to what our constitutional requirements actually are. The arguments we have had here fall back to the point that it is a political question and not one for the courts, and that point would be solved by the vote.

That is not to say that everything would carry on as before: there is clear dissent and issues would need to be addressed, otherwise we will end up going through it all again in a few years time.
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Re: A second vote

Postby dls » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:26 pm

Whilst that is pure fantasy, and is not at all what this particular group propose, the position would be the same. It would require an act of political forgiveness from the EU, who would no doubt agree but on terms which would be likely to be humiliating. Again, membership of Euro and Schengen, and adjustment of the budget rebates.
At the time of withdrawing such a notice, we could have no idea what would be the eventual terms eventually to be agreed. The logic of the argument presented by this group would still require allowance for yet a further referendum (no 3) for the voters on the final deal.
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Re: A second vote

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:02 pm

If we are able to withdraw the Article 50 notification, then we know what our future membership of the EU looks like. It looks like this. We continue our membership of the EU as heretofore.

Even if we are not so able, it is unclear to me why the EU would wish to humiliate us in an application to remain. Much of the EU's focus has been on making it clear that life is better in the union than outside. What benefit would there be in trying to make it harder for us to do so? It would merely make it more likely for us to leave.

Sorry, but the fantasists are wholly on the other side of the argument.
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Re: A second vote

Postby tph » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:50 pm

I agree with dls except the EU would not try to humilate us. It would simply be a case that they would have the upper hand in negotiations and we would have to accept a lesser deal than we currently have.

So voting to remain would be voting for the unknown.

I still think a referendum on the final deal would be problematic as there are three potential options which does not always lend itself to a majority decision. I suppose you could have;

1. Accept the deal and leave the EU
2. Reject the deal and leave the EU without a formal deal
3. Withdraw the article 50 notice and remain in the EU.

I suppose point 3 could have 'subject to a further referendum on final terms'.
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Re: A second vote

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:53 am

No, if we withdraw the Article 50 notification then we remain in the EU on the same terms as now.
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Re: A second vote

Postby dls » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:38 am

No, if we withdraw the Article 50 notification then we remain in the EU on the same terms as now.


The thing is that there is clearly no direct legal or logical justification for such an assertion. It might just be right, it is just as likely to be hot air.
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