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speeding and failing to provide information

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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby Jinxer » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:49 am

Michael wrote:I once sent off a v5 for change of address on my old mk1 escort and then forgot about it due to all the issues relating to moving into and renovating my first house . I only realized I hadn't received anything back when I went to sorn the car as I needed something newer that could travel the distance between home and work.

Is the offence still committed if you sent off the v5 but it was not received.


Not at all once you have placed the v5 in the post box then it is deemed as delivered and a stat declaration to the court would suffice. There is case law on this somewhere I remember reading it once.
Won't affect the OP though as he has already stated he forgot to send the v5 for change of address. Forgetting to send isn't a defence. I wonder how many cases are decided purely on the fact that the defendant self incriminated when in reality there would be no chance of a successful prosecution if they kept there big gob shut lol.
I'm not saying the OP has a big gob by the way, I mean people in general.
It's ok your children are safe, they're locked away behind barbed wire gates. If you don't comply sir they'll send you another fine sir.
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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby Maz JP » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:24 pm

diy wrote:Its the nature of the beast.

What you are suggesting is that magistrates are not delivering as justice they promised to do when they took the Judicial Oath. It's an enormously serious charge that surely requires some hefty evidence. So let's examine that evidence...

diy wrote:The "demographic" of magistrates does not map to broader population.

This really has nothing to do with delivering justice and/or just verdicts. Some argue, me included, that It would be good if the lay judiciary better reflected the communities that it served (although the MOJ's decision to abandon the concept of 'local justice' might even call that into question ) and this remains a recruiting aim ; but I don't really think the point is relevant to your accusation and would challenge you to better substantiate the connection.

diy wrote: miscarriages are not rare and the stats support this.

To make this point relevant you would need to show that such miscarriages are more prevalent in the magistrates' courts than elsewhere. I await your stats with interest, since I am not too sure any exist.

diy wrote:- Crown court: has a much higher acquittal rate.

This could be for a whole variety of reasons, from the nature of the crimes being prosecuted to the willingness of the guilty to accept speedy, summary justice. It is most certainly not evidence to suggest, as you seem to be concluding, that magistrates courts are less likely to acquit the innocent.

diy wrote: Juries are more cautious, they didn't volunteer, they aren't on a mission and they don't spend a lot of time quickly hearing cases.

Here you suggest that because people volunteer for a task, on a 'mission' as you put it, they are more likely to do a shoddy job. This thinking doesn't pass muster on any level whatsoever.

diy wrote: Prejudice is part of the human condition - Its not meant to be insulting, its about understanding how your brain works.

Being charitable, this is an opinion, (about life as much as law) not evidence. All I can say is that my own personal experience and opinion is directly to the contrary.

diy wrote:- The system is stacked against the defendant, everyone else in the room knows what they are doing. Pleas of not guilty are high risk.

That is a comment on the legal system as a whole and has little to do with the charge that you proffered. One could debate it perhaps, but maybe not best on a road traffic law forum.


In short, I think you have made a grave accusation and then wholly failed to validate it in any way whatsoever.

It's not impossible that I have taken this too seriously of course, but when someone attacks what you do, and your value system, I think you are maybe allowed some leeway.
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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby atticus » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:10 pm

Maz - I know how you feel. You are right to come out fighting. I get pissed off at the snide digs against my profession.

A couple of diy's points may say somewhat more about him.
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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby jeremy2017 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:34 am

Thanks for all the comments. I am still a bit unclear about whether or not the registered keeper was really "given full opportunity to point to another person". Clearly, here this was not the case, as none of the documents sent through the post were actually received by the keeper. I understand that failing to update the V5 was an offence, but , sh** happens, as they say... So, technically, if a document sent through the post by recorded delivery was returned as "uncollected", technically, has delivery actually taken place and can it be asserted that the owner had knowledge of the charges against her?

I can assure you that the assumption the owner was "determined to trip herself up at every opportunity" couldn't be further from the truth! It was a genuine oversight by an otherwise decent person, who has never been convicted of anything in her life.
Last edited by jeremy2017 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby atticus » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:36 am

Jeremy: you miss the point. None of that helps if the change of address has not been notified. You cannot turn that offence to your advantage.
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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby dls » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:02 pm

one of the documents sent through the post were actually received by the keeper.


You make an elision - 'registered keeper' not just keeper.

The registered keeper is the person notifying himself to DVLC of his reponsibility and the address from which he will field that responsibility.
'keeper' as such is not a concept known to this area of law.
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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby diy » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:50 pm

Maz JP wrote:It's not impossible that I have taken this too seriously of course, but when someone attacks what you do, and your value system, I think you are maybe allowed some leeway.


and this is where we've got off on the wrong foot, due to the nature of writing stuff in a forum thread. I'm not at all being critical of magistrates as individuals or in any way suggesting they aren't doing their very best as passionately as they possibly can. However, they are human and humans suffer from the human condition. I think this article will explain better.
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/ne ... nking.html

Familiarity of a task leads to categorisation as method of quickly making a decision. The brain is looking at the situation and trying to work out if its like "this" or like "that". The more you experience scenarios that are like "that" the more likely you will miss something like "this".
My suggestions are not legal advice
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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby Maz JP » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:28 am

Hmmm.

Magistrates are trained you know. And in an ongoing fashion. And they are appraised formally regularly, and informally at the end of each sitting. So whilst there may be something in your theory, practice can ensure it does not happen.

Meanwhile, on a more pragmatic level, you have not addressed my other rebuttals.
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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby diy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:31 am

I can't address opinion and I'm not going to start 3 pages of evidence, opinion, denial etc, I don't think I can convince you, so I wont try. I would say some of the reports on http://www.transformjustice.org.uk very much echo my point of view. I'd suggest that we start a new thread if we want to discuss reforming magistrates courts and the relevant strengths and weaknesses of the current system.
My suggestions are not legal advice
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Re: speeding and failing to provide information

Postby atticus » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:44 am

Then don't write a load of anecdotal stuff saying there is plenty of evidence to support it. That pisses people off, as you have seen.
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