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Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

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Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby shootist » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:29 pm

1) As before, assume four trustees for a total of a dozen beneficial owners. As before, one trustee has significant problems working with the other three. Three of the trustees want to gift or otherwise transfer ownership of the land in it's entirety, or if that's not possible then at least their three quarters of the land or even a smaller proportion by dividing the land into two parts. Is this, or anything like it, possible?

2) Could the 3 trustees transfer their trusteeship (?) to another party without the consent of the fourth?

For the purposes of this exercise, assume there is nothing in the trust document specifically prohibiting such an action.

TIA.
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Re: Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby dls » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:15 pm

Sorry, but go away and kick yourself a few times - you have lost the distinction between trustees and beneficial owners again.

The answer to your problem that is one trustee is refusing to do what the majority by value of the beneficial owners wish to do, then the beneficiaries apply to the court (Trusts of Land and Appointment of Trustees Act) for an order as to what is to be done.

The recalcitrant trustee can be warned that he is likely to have to indemnify the trust for costs if his refusal to act is improper, and his beneficial share charged accordingly.
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Re: Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby shootist » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:51 pm

:oops:
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Re: Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby shootist » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:50 pm

OK, I think we're on the back straight now. Some more questions if I may.

1. How much is it likely to cost (ball park, no quote needed, unless anyone wants the job) to get an 'assignment of beneficial interest in land' document drawn up. Nothing fancy, just, in common parlance, a transfer of beneficial ownership from one person to another?

2. Assuming this is done, does the previous beneficial owner remain liable for anything in respect of the land, assuming again that there is no pre-existing legal obligation for him to do so?

3. Is a lawyer required to make this transfer or can the two parties manage it between them?
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Re: Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby theycantdothat » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:31 pm

1. Shop around.

2. Beneficial owners are not usually liable for anything affecting the land unless they are also trustees.

3. There is no legal requirement to employ an authorised conveyancer. It is not however advisable for a non-lawyer to try his hand at drawing up documents relating to beneficial interests.
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Re: Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby shootist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:55 am

theycantdothat wrote:1. Shop around.

2. Beneficial owners are not usually liable for anything affecting the land unless they are also trustees.

3. There is no legal requirement to employ an authorised conveyancer. It is not however advisable for a non-lawyer to try his hand at drawing up documents relating to beneficial interests.


Thanks for the input, all basically good advice, but I'm afraid it's not much use. I will certainly be shopping around. If a huge bill, say an uninsured loss, comes in I would think that any beneficial owner might have to pod out. What I am asking in that question is whether once they have assigned their beneficial interest has it gone completely away as far as they are concerned. Again, with respect to the advisability of a lawyer doing the job, I have seen elsewhere what is a very simple and short form that assigns B.I. and therefore wonder if in the case of what I hope would be a straightforward transfer if B.I. (ownership in common parlance) paying a lawyer might seem unnecessary. Some filler detail would be very much appreciated to assist me on where to do further research if need be.
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Re: Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby atticus » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:53 am

Simple problems have simple solutions. The solutions for more complicated situations are not always simple.

Your numerous posts about this do not suggest a simple situation.
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Re: Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby theycantdothat » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:55 am

shootist wrote:If a huge bill, say an uninsured loss, comes in I would think that any beneficial owner might have to pod out. What I am asking in that question is whether once they have assigned their beneficial interest has it gone completely away as far as they are concerned.


You may be right about such a liability, but if a beneficiary disposes of his share it is difficult to see how he can be liable for anything which happens after the disposal. It does not do as a general principle to worry too much about remote contingencies.

shootist wrote:Again, with respect to the advisability of a lawyer doing the job, I have seen elsewhere what is a very simple and short form that assigns B.I. and therefore wonder if in the case of what I hope would be a straightforward transfer if B.I. (ownership in common parlance) paying a lawyer might seem unnecessary. Some filler detail would be very much appreciated to assist me on where to do further research if need be.


It is true that in most cases the transfer of a beneficial interest only needs a straightforward document. The problems for the layman (and indeed any lawyer unfamilar with the niceties of beneficial interests) are: (a) Is my case one of those which requires a document for which there is no precise precedent to be found in a book? (b) Of the many short short documents I will find in a book which one do I need? (c) If the precedent I opt for contains alternatives which do I opt for when I do not understand the footnotes aimed at lawyers versed in trust law?

I deliberately refer to precedents found in a book, because no way should you use a precedent found on line.

It really is very easy to go wrong with legal drafting.
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Re: Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby shootist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:20 pm

atticus wrote:Simple problems have simple solutions. The solutions for more complicated situations are not always simple.

Your numerous posts about this do not suggest a simple situation.


The situation as a whole is indeed most complex. The current queries are hoped to resolve one particular issue which is largely incidental to the main issue. Some help with the questions would be much appreciated.
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Re: Another trustee / land owner query. (or two)

Postby atticus » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:25 pm

It was an answer to your question whether a lawyer
is necessary.
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