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Removal of essential life support equipment...

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Re: Removal of essential life support equipment...

Postby atticus » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:44 pm

A reminder of the question as it was tabled
Hairyloon wrote:If somebody relies on certain equipment to survive and somebody takes that equipment and the person dies, then would or could that be murder?
Take for example someone with severe asthma and somebody takes away their inhaler. Other examples are also available.
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Re: Removal of essential life support equipment...

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:48 pm

Conveniently landed at the top of a new page. Thank you.
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Re: Removal of essential life support equipment...

Postby Millbrook2 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:30 pm

How do we know they knew it was his sleeping bag. If it had been left with other bit and pieces it could easily have been taken for rubbish and tidied up.
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Re: Removal of essential life support equipment...

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:24 pm

Millbrook2 wrote:How do we know they knew it was his sleeping bag. If it had been left with other bit and pieces it could easily have been taken for rubbish and tidied up.

This is indeed a possibility.
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Re: Removal of essential life support equipment...

Postby shootist » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:26 pm

Hairyloon wrote:The answer to that, I think, lies in one of the Mental Health Acts, but the question on the table is by what authority did they take away his means of survival?


1) Where in the mental health acts? How comfortable it must be to imagine that they offer any solution to people like this. It saves having to think about any unpleasantness. In my 22 years service I doubt I could have ever once got one of the winter dossers locked up, any of them, under that pretext. In my first year I was introduced to Ron and Winnie, among many others. two rough sleeper alcoholics now long dead bless 'em. When snow was on the ground one of the almost duty calls, unofficial, was to do a 4am check on them both sleeping on and under multiple sheets of cardboard (they used to dream of having a sleeping bag) to see if they were at least as well as they could be. Not a chance in hell of getting them sectioned. "You all right Ron?" "Yes boss." Was the minimum required reply. Sometimes, if things were rough and they weren't too drunk we'd try and get them into the hopelessly misnamed 'Cozybeds' dosserariam, but it was usually a lost cause.

2) With regard to 'Kev', his sleeping bag was his means of survival only when he chose to sleep rough in an underpass. It is not his only means of survival. When the sleeping bag goes missing, he can fall back on a number of support measures available to him. If all else fails he just needs to go to the nick and smash a window. Voila! A night in the warm, two if it's Saturday night, and a half decent meal or four for free with the hope of a government sponsored holiday to follow.

You might want a solution. These men could be removed to some sort of secure camp (please, no concentration camp remarks). They could then be scrubbed up and given work to do, fed, watered, detoxed (hopefully) and clothed in return for a bit of work on the vegetable patch, and perhaps counselled to try and get their lives back together. The incorrigible idiots among them, and they are there, can be booted out with a PNC warning saying "Arsehole." Which solution might you prefer?
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Re: Removal of essential life support equipment...

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:47 pm

shootist wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:The answer to that, I think, lies in one of the Mental Health Acts, but the question on the table is by what authority did they take away his means of survival?


1) Where in the mental health acts? How comfortable it must be to imagine that they offer any solution to people like this.


You did not ask of a solution, you asked where was the crossover to take their free will.
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Re: Removal of essential life support equipment...

Postby shootist » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:41 am

Hairyloon wrote:
shootist wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:The answer to that, I think, lies in one of the Mental Health Acts, but the question on the table is by what authority did they take away his means of survival?


1) Where in the mental health acts? How comfortable it must be to imagine that they offer any solution to people like this.


You did not ask of a solution, you asked where was the crossover to take their free will.


You made a statement suggesting that you think, that the answer lies in one of the mental health acts. In context, 'the answer' that you referred to would be, by definition, a solution. That mental health acts provide a crossover to take a person's free will from them is indisputable, but only under certain conditions which are not met by the majority of rough sleepers such as 'Kev'. In discussing the problem of such rough sleepers, whether seeking a solution or an answer, it might be prudent to know a little about the proposed answer, or solution, before it is so carelessly offered.
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Re: Removal of essential life support equipment...

Postby Boo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:28 pm

Unfortunately this isn't rare. I've known a few local entrenched RS who've not made it through to the following morning.

Councils remove rough sleeper's belongings everyday - if they're left unattended. They claim they're unsightly and a health hazard.

We don't know anything about this guy's life. We don't know if he had underlying health issues, had benefits in place etc, but many years rough sleeping isn't going to do any good for his physical and mental health.
It's very sad.

The fire service donate survival bags to rough sleeper charities every year. The bags are awesome. They're also currency for some...

If you have blankets/duverts or sleeping bags that you're not using please donate to your local nightshelter/hostel.
Ring them beforehand as this time of year they're inundated with donations.

I would like to think that once the homeless reduction act is in full force throughout the country, Local Authorities and support agencies can crank up their responses to entrenched rough sleepers. Of course, that would all depend on available, affordable, reasonable accommodation. And an endless supply of emergency accommodation...training - gotta watch for those judicial reviews!

For anyone with spare cash and you're not sure what to do with it, you may want to think about going into the B&B business.
Maybe not - the Local Authorities haven't been given much money to roll everything out - feck knows what's going to happen. The government is putting 61 million pounds on the table. Every LA in the country is having a slice of that. It's not enough.

Sorry, I could ramble on about this for hours...days. Weeks. Months.
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