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Inciting Racial Hatred...

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Re: Inciting Racial Hatred...

Postby dls » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:05 pm

They are full of hate. They are designed to appeal to the worst instincts in people. They are shameful.

The legal definition of racism however requires (generally) the identification of a race. They may be designed to tread very carefully near, but just not quite over the line.
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Re: Inciting Racial Hatred...

Postby Hairyloon » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:50 pm

dls wrote:They are full of hate. They are designed to appeal to the worst instincts in people. They are shameful.

The legal definition of racism however requires (generally) the identification of a race. They may be designed to tread very carefully near, but just not quite over the line.

Does the law not prohibit incitement of religious hatred? I'm a little surprised.

How is the law framed? If you set out to incite religious hatred, and inadvertently incite racial hatred, then is that an offence?

Come to that, how is "race" defined in the law? Last I checked, science refused to make any such distinction: the official word from science is that we are all of the human race... Or at least most of us are: some may be Orang-utan.

The more you look at this question, the more ridiculous it becomes: if one were to set out to incite violence against "black people", then there is surely no question that that would be racial, but I understand that the phrase "black people" has fallen out of favour (in some circles?) and "people of colour" is more "politically correct".
If we are going to insist on making racial distinctions, then there is no way in hell that all "people of colour" are of the same "race".

Perhaps we would be better to look at it from the other direction: consider racism in its purest form and see how that defines race: how does (eg) the BNP define race?
I don't know for sure, but they do appear to divide the races into "British" and everybody else...
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Re: Inciting Racial Hatred...

Postby 3.14 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:51 pm

Google is your friend... Look up Equality Act 2010 and Racist and Religious Crime - CPS Guidance. It's all in there.
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Re: Inciting Racial Hatred...

Postby Hairyloon » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:03 pm

Public Order Act 1986 wrote:17 Meaning of “racial hatred”.

In this Part “racial hatred” means hatred against a group of persons F1. . . defined by reference to colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins.


Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 wrote:1Hatred against persons on religious grounds

The Public Order Act 1986 (c. 64) is amended in accordance with the Schedule to this Act, which creates offences involving stirring up hatred against persons on religious grounds.


dls wrote:They may be designed to tread very carefully near, but just not quite over the line.

I may be wrong, but I think their designer got it very badly wrong.
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Re: Inciting Racial Hatred...

Postby Maz JP » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:50 am

Hairyloon wrote:Come to that, how is "race" defined in the law? Last I checked, science refused to make any such distinction: the official word from science is that we are all of the human race... .

No definition is going to be perfect, and one of my delights in the law is how it can evolve.

That said, this is the advice we are currently given...

"A racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins." The definition is wide and victims may come within the definition under more than one of the references. Gypsies and some travellers, refugees or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities would be included within this definition. While Romany gypsies have long been recognised as a ethnic racial group (Commission for Racial Equality v Dutton [1989] QB 783), in more recent times and certainly since the first instance discrimination case of O'Leary v Punch Retail (HHJ Goldstein, Westminster County Court, 29 August 2000), Irish Travellers have also been considered an ethnic racial group. Whilst this has not been considered by an appellate criminal court, the O'Leary case is regarded as being persuasive if the point is ever taken.


I'm not too sure that the best place to look (for legal purposes) is at scientific textbooks.
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Re: Inciting Racial Hatred...

Postby shootist » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:28 pm

Race today seems to be defined by any means possible to allow a certain type of self defined 'liberal' person to call anyone who disagrees with them on certain issues a racist.
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Re: Inciting Racial Hatred...

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:05 pm

Maz JP wrote:While Romany gypsies have long been recognised as a ethnic racial group (Commission for Racial Equality v Dutton [1989] QB 783), in more recent times and certainly since the first instance discrimination case of O'Leary v Punch Retail (HHJ Goldstein, Westminster County Court, 29 August 2000), Irish Travellers have also been considered an ethnic racial group...

I have often pondered on that one: if the discrimination is based upon the fact that they are itinerant, and in many cases it is, then that is not a racial issue, although it may be a cause of indirect discrimination.
If we accept that refusal of service to travellers is an indirect discrimination against Romany and Irish travellers, but not against travellers who are not members of those groups, then isn't that distinction a direct discrimination based on race?

That looks a bit confusing, sorry, I hope you followed it ok. :?
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Re: Inciting Racial Hatred...

Postby shootist » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:39 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
Maz JP wrote:While Romany gypsies have long been recognised as a ethnic racial group (Commission for Racial Equality v Dutton [1989] QB 783), in more recent times and certainly since the first instance discrimination case of O'Leary v Punch Retail (HHJ Goldstein, Westminster County Court, 29 August 2000), Irish Travellers have also been considered an ethnic racial group...

I have often pondered on that one: if the discrimination is based upon the fact that they are itinerant, and in many cases it is, then that is not a racial issue, although it may be a cause of indirect discrimination.
If we accept that refusal of service to travellers is an indirect discrimination against Romany and Irish travellers, but not against travellers who are not members of those groups, then isn't that distinction a direct discrimination based on race?

That looks a bit confusing, sorry, I hope you followed it ok. :?


I think you raise an interesting and valid point. Put a sign on a pub door saying "No Gipsies allowed in" and you'd be looking for trouble. But if the objection is to 'travellers' and the sign read "No itinerant travellers allowed" would that count as discrimination? I suspect that it would on the basis that by excluding travellers then members of minority groups, E.G. gipsies, Irish Travellers, and the like would be discriminated against because the majority of travellers (in context) excluded would be either gipsies or Irish.
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Re: Inciting Racial Hatred...

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:09 pm

Is it still true that the majority of travellers are gypsies or Irish?
There was certainly a big swell of other travellers in the seventies and eighties, but Thatcher declared war on them (quite literally) and I think that largely wiped them out.
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