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How to force crime to be investigated

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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:20 pm

My PCC says they need evidence before they can start any investigation.
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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby shootist » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:34 pm

Hairyloon wrote:My PCC says they need evidence before they can start any investigation.


Then he's talking out of his arse. Take one complainant making an allegation of rape occurring over 40 years ago, totally unsupported by any evidence, and the police will send a team of officers to tear up a famous singer's home while he's abroad. That's just one example.
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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby Spankymonkey » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:10 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote:Building a case that is sufficiently compelling that the CPS will not take the prosecution over and discontinue it cannot be described as easy. If it were, the police would do it.


Why would the police care about whether or not the CPS discontinue a prosecution? If anything they would be doing them a favour because then the police could stop doing all that time consuming evidence gathering stuff and get back to what they do best: Prosecuting the underclasses for low level summary offences. Offences that aren't saddled with endless evidence gathering, because the CPS will be keeping their noses out, so the police don't have to trouble themselves with the full code test and can bring people to court with no more evidence than an officers word against that of the defendant. Notch up as many successful prosecutions on the officers service record as possible, and hopefully get a promotion.

The police refuse to investigate fraud not because of the difficulty of evidence gathering, but because it gets in the way of their preferred tasks of shepherding the masses into magistrate's court. Why get involved with one serious crime, when you can complete about 20 petty ones in the same amount of time?
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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby atticus » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:15 pm

That may be one of the effects of the box-ticking and target-setting approach to measuring performance.
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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby shootist » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:39 pm

Spankymonkey wrote:
Smouldering Stoat wrote:Building a case that is sufficiently compelling that the CPS will not take the prosecution over and discontinue it cannot be described as easy. If it were, the police would do it.


Why would the police care about whether or not the CPS discontinue a prosecution? If anything they would be doing them a favour because then the police could stop doing all that time consuming evidence gathering stuff and get back to what they do best: Prosecuting the underclasses for low level summary offences. Offences that aren't saddled with endless evidence gathering, because the CPS will be keeping their noses out, so the police don't have to trouble themselves with the full code test and can bring people to court with no more evidence than an officers word against that of the defendant. Notch up as many successful prosecutions on the officers service record as possible, and hopefully get a promotion.


Ignoring for the moment the class war crap, you have it rather the wrong way around. The police discover / are handed a situation. They first decide if there's a crime. If they decide it is then the next step is to prove it, which they set out to do. Because they have decided it's a crime it is almost inevitable that when they select a suspect they do so because he is guilty. I mean, they wouldn't choose a suspect who isn't guilty now, would they. Then the evidence is gathered and presented to the CPS, who usually seem to toss a coin to decide what happens next. Both the police and the CPS would usually then rather stick needles in their eyes than admit that that there might just be a problem with what they have done.
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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby Spankymonkey » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:52 pm

Who mentioned class war? Not me. I merely pointed out that the vast majority of people the police prosecute are the underclass.

Then the evidence is gathered and presented to the CPS, who usually seem to toss a coin to decide what happens next.

Not in cases where the police bring the prosecution themselves.
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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:55 pm

shootist wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:My PCC says they need evidence before they can start any investigation.


Then he's talking out of his arse. Take one complainant making an allegation of rape occurring over 40 years ago, totally unsupported by any evidence, and the police will send a team of officers to tear up a famous singer's home while he's abroad. That's just one example.

I don't think that happened in my PCC's area...
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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:21 pm

Spankymonkey wrote:Why would the police care about whether or not the CPS discontinue a prosecution?


I didn't say they would. You described bringing a prosecution as "the easy option." It isn't easy - fraud is always difficult to prove - and one of the reasons we know it's not easy is the the Police are so reluctant to investigate. They think it's more trouble than it's worth.
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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby shootist » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:53 pm

Spankymonkey wrote:Who mentioned class war? Not me. I merely pointed out that the vast majority of people the police prosecute are the underclass.

Then the evidence is gathered and presented to the CPS, who usually seem to toss a coin to decide what happens next.

Not in cases where the police bring the prosecution themselves.


Perhaps you should have said untermensch. You talk about an underclass, you talk about the police prosecuting them. That's class war pure and simple.

I'm not sure what offences require running past CPS but I think it is the majority of charging decisions. These days the police are most reluctant to arrest and charge many of the offences that at one time were a police officer's bread and butter. But that was when the police were out on the streets dealing with such offences.
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Re: How to force crime to be investigated

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:02 pm

shootist wrote:I'm not sure what offences require running past CPS but I think it is the majority of charging decisions.


Here you go: mostly traffic offences and very low-level stuff. But note that the Police can only conduct prosecutions, even in these cases, where a guilty plea is anticipated.
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