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Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby atticus » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:45 am

There were more murders last year in Orange County, Florida (location of the so-called Winter White House) than the whole of Sweden.
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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:47 am

As to crime levels in Sweden, here is an article by Politifact which examines them: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/feb/20/what-statistics-say-about-immigration-and-sweden/
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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:54 am

I see shooty has not copied the part of the Wikipedia article which attributes the level of attacks to organised crime.
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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:01 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote:I see shooty has not copied the part of the Wikipedia article which attributes the level of attacks to organised crime.

You are familiar with the "Texas sharp shootist" debating strategy?
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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby atticus » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:12 pm

I could not see the 70-odd footnotes to which shooter referred.

No one has disputed that there are crimes of violence in Sweden. I have been to Ystad!
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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:22 pm

shootist wrote:"Right Wing" as it is used today, is an empty term, shorthand for 'bad'. Good and bad have no association with 'right wing' except in the minds of the irrational.

I agree it is an empty term, but I dispute that it is synonymous with bad, it certainly isn't short hand. It is tautological and misleading, used at the same to describe a lean towards conservatism or towards fascism. Thus Hitler (and I'm sure we've been here before) was simultaneously both extreme right and left wing.
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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:47 pm

It's not an empty term. Left and right wing have been used as political descriptions since the French Revolution and are still useful in describing political positions now. We could replace them with other terms, but all we would be doing would be creating euphemisms.

I have described Mr Wilders as being right-wing. By any objective basis, he is right-wing. I can assure shootist that if I wished to find a term of abuse for him I would select a better epithet. He claims, with no evidence, that I intend it to be loaded with all kinds of hidden meanings. If so, I have successfully hidden them from myself.

This is from Wikipedia:

In Europe, economic conservatives are usually considered liberal, and the Right includes nationalists, nativist opposition to immigration, religious conservatives, and historically a significant presence of right-wing movements with anti-capitalist sentiments including conservatives and fascists who opposed what they saw as the selfishness and excessive materialism inherent in contemporary capitalism
.

It seems to me that Mr Wilders falls squarely within that European right-wing tradition. I am at a loss to understand why shootist is so keen to portray himself and his Dutch friend as being the victims of some terrible slight when a perfectly ordinary term has been used.
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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby shootist » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:41 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote:It's not an empty term. Left and right wing have been used as political descriptions since the French Revolution and are still useful in describing political positions now. We could replace them with other terms, but all we would be doing would be creating euphemisms.


Creating new euphemisms.

Smouldering Stoat wrote:I have described Mr Wilders as being right-wing. By any objective basis, he is right-wing. I can assure shootist that if I wished to find a term of abuse for him I would select a better epithet. He claims, with no evidence, that I intend it to be loaded with all kinds of hidden meanings. If so, I have successfully hidden them from myself.


A common enough habit among certain types of socialist, hiding the truth from themselves. The term 'Right Wing' casts a flavour upon the person so described that is intended to imply something bad about them. That much is abundantly clear to any impartial reader. 'Populist' is being accorded the same status.

Smouldering Stoat wrote:This is from Wikipedia:

In Europe, economic conservatives are usually considered liberal, and the Right includes nationalists, nativist opposition to immigration, religious conservatives, and historically a significant presence of right-wing movements with anti-capitalist sentiments including conservatives and fascists who opposed what they saw as the selfishness and excessive materialism inherent in contemporary capitalism
.

It seems to me that Mr Wilders falls squarely within that European right-wing tradition. I am at a loss to understand why shootist is so keen to portray himself and his Dutch friend as being the victims of some terrible slight when a perfectly ordinary term has been used.


As has been pointed out many times, because it's in Wikipedia, it doesn't mean to say it's correct. The very definition you offer is tainted by a comparison to people who are considered 'bad'. If you disagree then tell me what you find 'good' in the description you offer.

Why do you say that I am a friend of Wilders when I have not met the man? When have I mentioned that 'right wing' is a terrible slight? All I have said is that it's shorthand for 'bad', which you seem to prove in the quote you post. I agree that 'right wing' is a perfectly ordinary term when used by armchair socialists as shorthand for 'bad'. To pretend otherwise is somewhat dishonest.
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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby shootist » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:49 pm

atticus wrote:There were more murders last year in Orange County, Florida (location of the so-called Winter White House) than the whole of Sweden.


Where is the link to prove your assertion? A reliable, neutral, link is apparently the requirement these days. Furthermore, you fail to prove that the majority of these murders were not the work of immigrants. You need to post links to reliable evidence that they're not before your statement can be accepted as relevant to this thread.
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Re: Our condolences to everyone in Sweden

Postby atticus » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:52 pm

Look on Wikipedia
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