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Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby dls » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:36 am

Hasn't Mr F won elections to the EU Parliament? Not of itself a recommendation.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby atticus » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:41 am

That's my point
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby tph » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:22 am

dls wrote:We do not have a democracy in the simple sense. We have a representative democracy. We elect and employ people to use their judgment conscience and wisom to make decisions on our behalf at a parliament.

Those representatives betrayed that trust by allowig a referendum. They said 'we are too chicken to make this decision, you make it' They were wrong to do so,but having done so, we go down the path upon which we have settled.


I don't fully agree. The last government pledged a referendum as part of their election campaign. Obviously they had good reason to do so, but they would not have got away reneging on their promise.

Those who are not a fan of Mr Farage and UKIP should perhaps consider that the current position ensures their demise.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:32 am

How we got ourselves into this situation, in which the majority of MPs support our membership but we have ended up with the hardest of hard Brexits, will fascinate future generations of historians. I see from the Telegraph this morning that even Europhobic journalist Christopher Booker - who once assured us that the EU would not allow us to bury our pets until we had cooked us in a pressure cooker for half an hour - believes that leaving the EEA would be "madness," but there are are few MPs who feel able to say so, even though it must be what many of them believe.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby Hairyloon » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:23 am

Smouldering Stoat wrote:..there are are few MPs who feel able to say so, even though it must be what many of them believe.

Is that not a fundamental breakdown, if MP's are not able to say what they think?
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby atticus » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:30 am

Yes.

See the Rawnsley Grauniad article I have just posted a link to in another thread.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby tph » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:15 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
Smouldering Stoat wrote:..there are are few MPs who feel able to say so, even though it must be what many of them believe.

Is that not a fundamental breakdown, if MP's are not able to say what they think?


They have said what they think.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby shootist » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:56 pm

tph wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:
Smouldering Stoat wrote:..there are are few MPs who feel able to say so, even though it must be what many of them believe.

Is that not a fundamental breakdown, if MP's are not able to say what they think?


They have said what they think.


They have said what they say they think.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby dls » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:33 pm

The last government pledged a referendum as part of their election campaign. Obviously they had good reason to do so, but they would not have got away reneging on their promise.


Sorry, but no. The promise should not have been made. Referenda are a denial of our democracy. The only 'good' reason was that it would keep the euro sceptics quiet in the conservative party, but as I have said several times, referenda solve nothing. If the answer was clear (ie a big majority either way) they would not be necessary, and if the question is resolved only just either way, nobody's mind is changed.

Having got this far, I think there is no way back.

I do not think for one second that the question was 'Shall we half leave the EU', and nor do I think that half leaving will be on offer. I think the LibDem and Labour calls are beyond ridicule. The have no honesty about them, and no courage or intent. The question put was not one I would have wanted, and the answer given was not what I wanted, but it is the answer, and we must make the best of it.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:33 pm

dls wrote:I do not think for one second that the question was 'Shall we half leave the EU', and nor do I think that half leaving will be on offer.


Seriously? Before the referendum we went on a magical mystery tour of Europe, with various other countries being put forward - by the Leave Campaign - as offering a template by which we could do just that. We had the Norwegian Model (membership of the Single Market without membership of the EU), the Turkish Model (inside the Customs Union but outside the Single Market), the Swiss Model (outside the Single Market, without freedom of movement, but with sectoral agreements for, say, financial services). Maybe we could join, or rejoin, Efta in order to retain our Single Market membership. The current Foreign Secretary got up at the BBC debate two days before referendum day (I was there) and told us that we'd be able to pick anything from the menu, and that is we got into any difficulties the Seventh Cavalry in the form of the German automotive industry - the most powerful lobby group in Europe, he assured us - would ride to our rescue and persuade the EU to give us whatever it was we fancied.

Now, we are told, these possibilities are as non-existent as the £350m per week we were going to spend on the NHS, and that everyone knew the only offer on the table was the hardest of hard Brexits.

I think the LibDem and Labour calls are beyond ridicule. The have no honesty about them, and no courage or intent. The question put was not one I would have wanted, and the answer given was not what I wanted, but it is the answer, and we must make the best of it.


I'm not sure the Labour Party has a policy now. If they do, I don't understand it, and I don't think they do either. On the other hand - though I'm no fan of the Lib Dems at all - their current position seems honest and straightforward to me. They're in favour of EU membership, they think that the 48% who voted in favour of it ought to be represented, and that as much of our relationship ought to be salvaged as possible.
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