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Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

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Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:51 pm

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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby LoveandPeace » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:28 am

If you look at the facts beyond your personal ridicule (as that is what you are attempting to do) he is right. Did you not notice the chair didn't answer his question?

Coming out the EU is far more democratic than being tied into an insular organisation such as the EU.

HL you don't always have to behave like a lefty nut. If it wasn't for those loons then we wouldn't be in this mess today. Labour have only served to stab the working class in the back. Blair and the Labour Party caused all of this and bizarrely no one is blaming them. The Cons are the ones who are sorting out Labours sorry mess.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby shootist » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:36 pm

LoveandPeace wrote:If you look at the facts beyond your personal ridicule (as that is what you are attempting to do) he is right. Did you not notice the chair didn't answer his question?

Coming out the EU is far more democratic than being tied into an insular organisation such as the EU.

HL you don't always have to behave like a lefty nut. If it wasn't for those loons then we wouldn't be in this mess today. Labour have only served to stab the working class in the back. Blair and the Labour Party caused all of this and bizarrely no one is blaming them. The Cons are the ones who are sorting out Labours sorry mess.


No no no no no! You simply so not understand. Personal dislike beats rational discussion any time, especially when the person being disliked starts telling the truth.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:06 pm

LoveandPeace wrote:If you look at the facts beyond your personal ridicule (as that is what you are attempting to do) he is right. Did you not notice the chair didn't answer his question?

Coming out the EU is far more democratic than being tied into an insular organisation such as the EU.


What do you not get that I don't see "democracy" as the sacred cow that you all seem to. It is a useful tool when intelligently applied, but a dangerous master when used blindly without wisdom.

HL you don't always have to behave like a lefty nut.

Left and right are not helpful terms except for hands. They are both just a grab bag of policies which may vary according to fashion. Consider Hitler. He was a fascist, that makes him right wing, but also a socialist which makes him left wing.
He was famously a vegetarian: does that mean vegetarianism is Left or Right wing.
If it wasn't for those loons then we wouldn't be in this mess today. Labour have only served to stab the working class in the back. Blair and the Labour Party caused all of this and bizarrely no one is blaming them. The Cons are the ones who are sorting out Labours sorry mess.

Thing is with that though, as I recall, Labour had an effective opposition... except where they were doing things that the opposition would have done anyway.

And you illustrate nicely the flaw in the "Left/Right" dialogue. Your thought process appears to equate to:
Code: Select all
HL argues against the government.
The government is Right wing therefore HL is Left wing. 
Labour is Left wing therefore HL likes Labour.

Do I need to spell out where that is flawed?
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby dls » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:42 am

We do not have a democracy in the simple sense. We have a representative democracy. We elect and employ people to use their judgment conscience and wisom to make decisions on our behalf at a parliament.

Those representatives betrayed that trust by allowig a referendum. They said 'we are too chicken to make this decision, you make it' They were wrong to do so,but having done so, we go down the path upon which we have settled.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby miner » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:48 pm

dls wrote:We do not have a democracy in the simple sense. We have a representative democracy. We elect and employ people to use their judgment conscience and wisom to make decisions on our behalf at a parliament.

Those representatives betrayed that trust by allowig a referendum. They said 'we are too chicken to make this decision, you make it' They were wrong to do so,but having done so, we go down the path upon which we have settled.


They might have been wrong to do so (Personally, I don't think they were.) but the effect was that it produced the right result for the future of the UK and is likely a harbinger for many if not most of the other countries in the EU to secure better futures for themselves than they would ever have as members of the EU.

It seems almost certain that, without a Referendum and left to a vote by MPs, we wouldn't be leaving the EUroden of dishonesty, malpractice, corruption and incompetence and would be facing yet more centralization and mindless integration by the unelected, empty suits of the Champagne Socialists in the European Commission.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby Hairyloon » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:44 pm

dls wrote:Those representatives betrayed that trust by allowig a referendum...

And then won it back by lying throughout the campaign? How is that supposed to work?
You cannot have a functioning representative democracy without the essential elements of trust and confidence between the representatives and the represented.
How can we have that trust when the fundamental basis of a constitutional decision of this importance is based upon the fact that politicians cannot be trusted?
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby shootist » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:12 am

Hairyloon wrote:
dls wrote:Those representatives betrayed that trust by allowig a referendum...

And then won it back by lying throughout the campaign? How is that supposed to work?
You cannot have a functioning representative democracy without the essential elements of trust and confidence between the representatives and the represented.
How can we have that trust when the fundamental basis of a constitutional decision of this importance is based upon the fact that politicians cannot be trusted?


And your alternative is?
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby Hairyloon » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:41 am

shootist wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:
dls wrote:Those representatives betrayed that trust by allowig a referendum...

And then won it back by lying throughout the campaign? How is that supposed to work?
You cannot have a functioning representative democracy without the essential elements of trust and confidence between the representatives and the represented.
How can we have that trust when the fundamental basis of a constitutional decision of this importance is based upon the fact that politicians cannot be trusted?


And your alternative is?

I suggest that we reform the process by which the representatives are selected, such that we can find some that can be trusted.

Or if you were asking for my alternative to proceeding on a course decided fundamentally on the basis that politicians cannot be trusted, then the answer is to not proceed until the decision has been reviewed.
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Re: Lessons in democracy by Nigel Farage...

Postby shootist » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:52 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
shootist wrote:And your alternative is?

I suggest that we reform the process by which the representatives are selected, such that we can find some that can be trusted.


How would you do that?

Hairyloon wrote:Or if you were asking for my alternative to proceeding on a course decided fundamentally on the basis that politicians cannot be trusted, then the answer is to not proceed until the decision has been reviewed.


Reviewed by whom, and could you trust them?
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