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Come 2022

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Re: Come 2022

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:29 am

In "a resounding victory" I think he described it as...
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Re: Come 2022

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:38 am

BakersDozen wrote:Our departure from the EU in 2019 will just be purely ceromonial and the door will be left open after that date with us looking more like we will be making financial contributions up until the 2022 General Election.

Will we in fact get to 2022 without an election?
Gove has been saying that if we don't like the deal we can change it at the ballot box. That would have to mean an election before the matter is concluded...
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Re: Come 2022

Postby atticus » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:58 am

How do you think we will get to the ballot box?

Admittedly, it won't take many lost tory seats in by elections to change the parliamentary arithmetic and make the government weak and unstable.
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Re: Come 2022

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:19 pm

I usually walk down...
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Re: Come 2022

Postby dls » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:23 pm

Much as I dislike Gove, the suggestion thhat this be resolved by a general election is correct. It is how we should do things. The referendum has brought no unity, even within the Tory Party, let alone the countries making up the UK. A general election would not be a cure, but it is the best chance of getting as much nearer as we might.


It is in teh nature of these things that, just as nothing is agreed until it is all agreed, two hours before the very last of the dedalines, all will still not be agreed.

Then suddenly, and out of complete chaos will emerge another .. amicable fudge.
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Re: Come 2022

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:34 pm

dls wrote:Much as I dislike Gove, the suggestion thhat this be resolved by a general election is correct. It is how we should do things. The referendum has brought no unity, even within the Tory Party, let alone the countries making up the UK. A general election would not be a cure, but it is the best chance of getting as much nearer as we might...


Didn't we try that already? All it succeeded in doing was to demonstrate how messed up our electoral system is.
Why might a second election give a significantly different result?
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Re: Come 2022

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:40 pm

It *ought* to be the way we sort things. What ought to have happened should have been that David Cameron should have called the bluff of Ukip and the Tory headbangers. The decision to leave should have been taken after a General Election, if a party with a manifesto commitment to do so had won. The referendum broke the golden rule of representative democracy, and its greatest strength: that those who propose a course of action are the ones responsible for carrying it out.

To that extent we are in uncharted waters: yes, the final deal should be judged at a General Election. But what then? It is hard to see that election being a healing process, nor of it providing some solution we can unite behind. The catastrophic decision to call a referendum has put it into a position from which it is hard to see a straightforward way out.
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Re: Come 2022

Postby dls » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:55 am

I agree almost entirely, but we are where we are, and can only limp forward.

We do need a politician with the balls to say very loudly that referenda are not any part of our way forward.

We have general elections in which parties say what they intend to do. Elections have great imperfections, but they are the best answer we have, and none of the imperfections have particularly clear improvements.
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Re: Come 2022

Postby BakersDozen » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:22 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote: What ought to have happened should have been that David Cameron should have called the bluff of Ukip and the Tory headbangers.


Back in 2015 it was said that the general election was actually a referendum as the tories were the only party offering it as part of their manifesto, if they voted labour or lib dem there would have never been a referendum.

Where Cameron and all the political elite got it wrong on Brexit was the fact they were out of touch. An English trait is to keep your thoughts to yourself and under your breathe.

They thought they had remain in the bag but it was Corbyn who seemed disinterested in it all, a factor perhaps? Hence Gordon Brown doing his bit from Coventry Cathedral, it actually worked against him! As did the ridiculousness of Brown and Cameron sharing a remain stage in Birmingham!

As for now, there is no mess, its the tories making out they are honouring Brexit but keeping their options open for the next generation of voter as they continue with the strategy of appeasing their old guard of brexit voter.

My feeling is we will never leave there is not the will from the political elite, it will not be allowed.
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