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Put simply

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Put simply

Postby dls » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:16 am

There was a chap (Name not known) on the BBC yesterday morning who summed it all up very neatly. This is not a negotiation in which we have much part to play. Everything, apart from the submission to the ECJ is within the gift (at a price) of the EU.

They say what they are prepared to offer and at what price. No doubt they will ask for more than they would eventually accept, but the question I have now asked several times to the several apparent soft-Brexiteers here remains.

Labour and the Lib-Dems say that it is wrong to say 'No deal is better than a bad deal'. I cannot - I really do not - understand how that can as a matter of logic be criticised. All tat is being said that in the world of all possible deals on offer (plenty of HL-type counterfactuals included) some must be rather worse than no deal. For example, if the EU offered continued membership of the market, but at a cost of a thousand billion Euros a year, I would suggest this was worse than no deal, and we would simply have to walk away.

Is it not in reality an implicit assertion that 'The EU is incapable of being wrong, and therefore necessarily, and as a matter of faith, they will only offer us nice deals.' the criticism of TM is actually an assertion of deep faith in the virtue of the European Commission.
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Re: Put simply

Postby diy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:42 am

Your missing the political argument..

- Libdems don''t want us to leave the EU, therefore they want a leave deal to look as much like a remain deal as possible.
- Labour want to appeal to anyone to get votes. Their deal aims to look like whatever TM can get, but a bit better.

I really think we are wasting our time talking to them. the Trump/US deal window is closing. We can cause chaos by accelerating the exit, to force the EU to reveal their hand.
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Re: Put simply

Postby dls » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:45 am

I do not think a matter of demonstrating anyone right or wrong - just about how we get the best arrangement overall after leaving the EU. You are right that this is not simply about what arrangement is left with the EU, but also about what arrangements are in place with the rest of the world.
No purpose whatever is served by castigating the EU for their past undoubted and innumerable wrongs.
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Re: Put simply

Postby Russell » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:21 am

You'd think this would be a time for setting apart differences and getting on with it. However, the left (especially) seem to think democracy only works when it's in their favour.
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Re: Put simply

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:29 am

Russell wrote:You'd think this would be a time for setting apart differences and getting on with it. However, the left (especially) seem to think democracy only works when it's in their favour.

Point to one instance where I have suggested that democracy works. It is fundamentally flawed because the vast majority are not very clever.
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Re: Put simply

Postby atticus » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:32 am

setting aside differences must mean compromise, al. On all sides.
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Re: Put simply

Postby dls » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:24 am

setting aside differences must mean compromise, al. On all sides.


Yes
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Re: Put simply

Postby Russell » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:20 am

Hairyloon wrote:
Russell wrote:You'd think this would be a time for setting apart differences and getting on with it. However, the left (especially) seem to think democracy only works when it's in their favour.

Point to one instance where I have suggested that democracy works. It is fundamentally flawed because the vast majority are not very clever.


Indeed that's why I think there should be a minimum requirement to vote, which naturally there never will be. And it's not necessarily levels of intelligence, it can be overwhelming bias. The greatest example I can give for this is the widespread belief that the 'leave campaign' have broken their promises. However, the leave campaign made no promises at all.
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Re: Put simply

Postby atticus » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:53 am

Yeah, right.
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Re: Put simply

Postby Russell » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:26 pm

Yeah it is, innit.
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