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Northern Ireland

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Northern Ireland

Postby dls » Sun May 14, 2017 9:37 am

Everybody knows that we must resolve this.

I am old enough to remember a time - before EU membership and before the troubles when there was no effective border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The border only became 'clear' with the trouble.

I do not know the answer, and accept that times have moved on and are different, but nobody wants or is proposing a border.

David Davis made a strong point this am saying that we cannot say what sort of border might apply without knowing what sort of trading tariff relationship there will be between the two countries. IN other words that the EU policy of negotiating the border provisions first and then working out what it might be asked to do does not make huge sense.
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Re: Northern Ireland

Postby Hairyloon » Sun May 14, 2017 10:50 am

dls wrote:IN other words that the EU policy of negotiating the border provisions first and then working out what it might be asked to do does not make huge sense.


In stark contrast to everything else that is going on. :roll:
Last edited by Smouldering Stoat on Sun May 14, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quote.
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Re: Northern Ireland

Postby miner » Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 pm

The issue (such as it is) of the Irish border is a matter to be resolved between the national governments of the UK/NI government on the one hand and the Eire government on the other. Both sides have historical and vested interests in maintaining the border conditions which in any event predate the UK's and Eire's membership of the Common Market.

It should never have been introduced by the interfering Brussels Brigade of Bungling Buffoons into the matter of Brexit. Those clowns like to think of the EU as a country when it is no such thing.

Yes, of course David Davis is correct. The BBBB is talking its customary EUrobollocks.

Angela Merkel seems assured of being re-elected in September and Mutti's attitude to Brexit will change dramatically once she is secure politically against the former Mayor of Würselen becoming Chancellor.

Ultimately, the German industrialists will pressurise Merkel into ensuring that there is tariff-free or very-low-tariff trade between the UK and the EU as German Industry has far too much to lose by its being otherwise. The very low tariffs to which I refer would likely amount to no more than the equivalent cost-wise of normal exchange rate movements between the Euro and the £.

France, with the inexperienced, pro EU Macron will have no clout at all with Merkel. She'll do whats best for Germany and instruct her BBBB puppets accordingly on Brexit. Juncker, Barnier, Verhofstadt et al, having already made complete fools of themselves over Brexit, are increasingly being seen as irrelevancies as far as Brexit is concerned and with Juncker going in 2018 anyway, Mutti will likely ensure that he won't be replaced by another embarrassing clown.
Last edited by miner on Sun May 14, 2017 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Northern Ireland

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Sun May 14, 2017 2:00 pm

The EU concludes trade deals on behalf of all the members of the Union. It is not lawful for the member states to negotiate these themselves. Similarly, the European Council negotiates with the UK on behalf of all the remaining members including the Republic of Ireland. Whether there is a hard border between the UK and the Republic depends on the outcome of those negotiations.

If we take control of those things that the Prime Minister has said we will control - including our borders, our own immigration policies and our own tarrifs, then it is inevitable that there will have to be a hard border. Otherwise goods and people will flow across the open border unrestricted.

Imposing that hard border will affect the Good Friday Agreement. Violence is a real possibility. It really doesn't seem wrong to consider that possibility when negotiating the deal.
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Re: Northern Ireland

Postby miner » Sun May 14, 2017 2:16 pm

The conditions which you describe in your first two sentences are subject to change at any time. And that could be soon. Brexit will have effects on the 27 other EU countries which will be far-reaching. Nothing is set in stone.

It's only just beginning to dawn on many other EU countries that the UK is actually leaving the EU.
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Re: Northern Ireland

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Sun May 14, 2017 2:22 pm

The conditions reflect the law as it stands. Changing them would require amendments to the treaties, which nobody has proposed. It is unsurprising that the EU is negotiating on the basis of what the treaties say now, as opposed to what others might wish them to be.
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Re: Northern Ireland

Postby atticus » Sun May 14, 2017 2:40 pm

And in the meantime wishes to see the end of the EU are just wishes.
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Re: Northern Ireland

Postby dls » Sun May 14, 2017 7:02 pm

If we take control of those things that the Prime Minister has said we will control - including our borders, our own immigration policies and our own tarrifs, then it is inevitable that there will have to be a hard border. Otherwise goods and people will flow across the open border unrestricted.


You say it is inevitable, and I do not say it will be easy, but before the troubles, there were clear differences of all sorts between the two states as to taxes and national status, but nobody bothered with a border and it more or less worked. The border, as such arose with the troubles
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Re: Northern Ireland

Postby atticus » Sun May 14, 2017 7:08 pm

You are harking back to days before either country was in the EU.
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Re: Northern Ireland

Postby miner » Mon May 15, 2017 12:19 am

dls wrote:
If we take control of those things that the Prime Minister has said we will control - including our borders, our own immigration policies and our own tarrifs, then it is inevitable that there will have to be a hard border. Otherwise goods and people will flow across the open border unrestricted.


You say it is inevitable, and I do not say it will be easy, but before the troubles, there were clear differences of all sorts between the two states as to taxes and national status, but nobody bothered with a border and it more or less worked. The border, as such arose with the troubles


In terms of very strict Customs checks, yes, but not in terms of the general movement of people. There was no passport control.

The reality is that the Eire/ NI border isn't exactly in the middle of mainland Europe and so the movement of Goods issues are on nothing like the scale of, for example, the German / French border or the France/Italy border.

if there has to be a hard border, due to EU intransigence and stupidity, so be it. It's not that big a deal. It's not as if that border is a gateway for goods other than between Eire and N Ireland and onward. Eire will soon get pissed of with it and might well find, having considered the reality of its situation, that it's better to be in bed with the UK than with the Brussels Brigade.

I cannot see that any referendum in N Ireland would lead to a united 32-county Ireland, but then none of us expected the reunification of Germany. The latter was a very different scenario, though, triggered by the collapse of the Soviet Union. The present day EUSSR looks like it's heading in the same direction, anyway.

(It'll be interesting to see what now happens in Austria, which is as of today heading for yet another General Election with the breakdown of the fairly brief Coalition agreement.)
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