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EU citizens rights

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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby miner » Sat May 13, 2017 2:51 pm

atticus wrote:Thank you thank you thank you.


You're welcome, you're welcome, you're welcome.
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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby dls » Sat May 13, 2017 3:00 pm

Just to be clear: you cannot imagine the Fundamental Rights being maintained by us?! Do we have a different understanding of what fundamental means?
With May in charge, I can well believe it, but it is not beyond the imagination.


You misunderstand. The charter is an EU charter - an EI guarantee of rights (very very similar to ECHR rights). I cannot imagine we would want to deny anybody the ECHR rights, but the specific right of an EU citizen to additional rights under the Charter, and to enforce those rights at the ECJ, not the ECHR, is one sought to be maintained by EU negotiators-to-be, and I cannot imagine it being granted by any UK government.

My point was as to the vastly over simple 'let's guarantee their rights' suggestion. It simply skates over an absolutely essential question - which rights?
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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby atticus » Sat May 13, 2017 3:29 pm

Exactly. And both sides have different views (and vice-versa).
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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby Hairyloon » Sat May 13, 2017 5:06 pm

dls wrote:My point was as to the vastly over simple 'let's guarantee their rights' suggestion.

Mine was that some of those are fundamental.
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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby atticus » Sat May 13, 2017 5:21 pm

And vice-versa
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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby Hairyloon » Sat May 13, 2017 6:00 pm

Have we not collectively decided and defined certain rights as fundamental? Who is it that is arguing that that definition is wrong?
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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby shootist » Sat May 13, 2017 8:48 pm

Hairyloon wrote:Have we not collectively decided and defined certain rights as fundamental? Who is it that is arguing that that definition is wrong?


Perhaps you might remind us all of what they are.
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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby diy » Sun May 14, 2017 6:17 am

I don't get what is so complex?

An EU citizen living in America under the green card scheme has no right to EU justice, just as I assume an American citizen with residency rights in France.

Why can it not work like this?
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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby Hairyloon » Sun May 14, 2017 8:14 am

shootist wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:Have we not collectively decided and defined certain rights as fundamental? Who is it that is arguing that that definition is wrong?


Perhaps you might remind us all of what they are.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/fundamental ... dex_en.htm
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Re: EU citizens rights

Postby dls » Sun May 14, 2017 9:26 am

The point is not about fundamental rights. It is about all the incidental rights granted under EU legislation.

The EU are not blathering about human rights, but about the right of an EU citizen to have his rights determined by the ECJ (the EU's court).

They are saying that the simple agreement of EU citizens rights will involve us continuing to accept the supremacy of the ECJ over us. What else can Labour mean?

All those living here will continue to have the benefit of the protection of the ECHR. The Charter of Fundamental Rights is substantially the same, but is guaranteed by the ECJ. The EU wants to preserve that.
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