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Negotiating as Members

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Negotiating as Members

Postby dls » Wed May 03, 2017 4:10 pm

Looking on, as we all are, to a battle which has not yet started, it reminds me of nothing so much as the preliminary to a battle scene from the Last Kingdom. Each side is assembling, displaying and beating its shield wall.

One thing which strikes me is that I suspect that most of the comment from the EU side, and from EU insiders here, to the effect that 'this is the way we do things' may be exactly correct as regards how the EU does it, but the entire point is that we approach this not as a client state but as an independent state.

Suggestions that the ECJ should be a final arbiter of any issues it seems to me beg the entire question. We cease to be bound by the treaties - and the ECJ has no jurisdiction when we leave. What possible jurisprudence could guide its considerations?
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Re: Negotiating as Members

Postby atticus » Wed May 03, 2017 4:23 pm

This will not go to any court. It will be an economic and political negotiation. Those discussions will reach conclusions, sooner or later.
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Re: Negotiating as Members

Postby miner » Wed May 03, 2017 5:02 pm

dls wrote:One thing which strikes me is that I suspect that most of the comment from the EU side, and from EU insiders here, to the effect that 'this is the way we do things' may be exactly correct as regards how the EU does it, but the entire point is that we approach this not as a client state but as an independent state.


Since the UK is now being treated as an outsider and no longer as a Member Country as far as certain meetings are concerned, it begs the question as to why we should still be contributing to EU coffers? Since it is clear that we are being denied membership rights (such as being excluded from many discussions), our contributions should be stopped or at least reduced by 50% or something. The EUrocake is still for sharing between 28 members at this stage, not 27.

Suggestions that the ECJ should be a final arbiter of any issues it seems to me beg the entire question. We cease to be bound by the treaties - and the ECJ has no jurisdiction when we leave. What possible jurisprudence could guide its considerations?


You'd know better than I, but to me they had never planned for or even had any contingency arrangements for this situation and therefore no jurisprudence exists. Barnier is reported as saying that Brexit may have to go to Court, but this seems to be just another silly and irresponsible comment from people who should know better. Their stupidity is exceeded on by their arrogance. This has degenerated into a EUrofarce already.
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Re: Negotiating as Members

Postby atticus » Wed May 03, 2017 5:29 pm

Is it your opinion that the UK is being excluded from meetings etc relating to anything other than consideration by the EU27 of the Brexit negotiations?
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Re: Negotiating as Members

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Wed May 03, 2017 6:45 pm

Client state? Seriously? We're members (for now) of a free association of member states, not a petty kingdom within the Babylonian Empire.

Both sides profess to want to negotiate some kind of deal for after we've left. How comprehensive that deal is remains to be seen, but that we'll agree on some points at least seems beyond doubt. We'll need to arrange some kind of arrangement to opt back in to Eurocontrol, for example, and the nuclear safety aspects of Euratom. The CJEU is the dispute resolution body for both of those organisations. And if we negotiate deals for other sectors, we'll need to arrange dispute resolution arrangements for those, too. And, of course, the CJEU will continue to regulate the single market of our nearest and most important trading partners.

The Prime Minister's promise that the CJEU will have no role to play is fatuous and dishonest.
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Re: Negotiating as Members

Postby miner » Wed May 03, 2017 8:28 pm

So what, please, is your definition of "a free association of member states"?

I believe that our PM is correct, as once we are no longer a member of the EU, for the CJEU to be the dispute resolution body for both the EU and the UK would place it in a "Conflict of interest" situation because it is an organ of the EU and as such acts for the interests of the EU.

Its rôle is defined as:

Ensuring EU law is interpreted and applied the same in every EU country; ensuring countries and EU institutions abide by EU law.


I cannot see any mandate that it has for acting other than for the interests of the EU or an EU country.
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Re: Negotiating as Members

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Wed May 03, 2017 8:49 pm

The CJEU regulates Eurocontrol, for example, including for those states who are not also members of the EU. So the precedent for the court to regulate agreements with non-EU members is well-established. Similarly, doubtless we will wish to opt back in to much of Euratom, which will involve submitting to CJEU jurisdiction over nuclear safety.
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Re: Negotiating as Members

Postby miner » Wed May 03, 2017 9:42 pm

Well, time will tell whether our Prime Minister's statement is right or wrong.
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Re: Negotiating as Members

Postby miner » Thu May 04, 2017 2:28 pm

atticus wrote:Is it your opinion that the UK is being excluded from meetings etc relating to anything other than consideration by the EU27 of the Brexit negotiations?


Yes. The EU dinner in Malta is but one example.
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Re: Negotiating as Members

Postby miner » Thu May 04, 2017 3:10 pm

miner wrote:So what, please, is your definition of "a free association of member states"?


I'd be interested in your response to that question, Stoaty.
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