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Et avec ceci?

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby shootist » Mon May 01, 2017 4:23 pm

My favourite quote of the moment:

"A club you have to pay to leave isn't a club, it's a protection racket."
"I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death my right to be offended by it."
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby miner » Mon May 01, 2017 4:29 pm

Great comment, and how very true.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby atticus » Mon May 01, 2017 5:22 pm

That may be true of clubs; it is not always true of partnerships, joint ventures, and a variety of other types of organisation in which people get together for a common purpose.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby miner » Mon May 01, 2017 5:26 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
miner wrote:Yanis Varoufakis, the former Greek finance minister, has made some very apposite comments on dealing with the EU hierarchy. He also said that the UK may as well not even both negotiating with the EU as they have no intention of ever reaching agreement and will simply waste our time with what will be a charade on their part.


Have you a link for that?


The Telegraph, 28 April 2017: (Appeared in the printed version on 29 May)
Yanis Varoufakis: 'My Brexit advice to Theresa May is to avoid negotiating at all costs'

Yanis Varoufakis, who dared to oppose the might of the EU, tells Ambrose Evans-Pritchard Britain must learn from Greece’s plight

Theresa May might balk at taking advice from a radical Greek Leftist and motorcycling heart-throb of the European protest movement, but nobody knows better than Yanis Varoufakis what it means to take on the EU power structure.

Yanis Varoufakis has a stark warning for Theresa May
The former finance minister of Greece bears the scars of battle. For five hair-raising months he waged guerrilla warfare against the debt-collection policies of the EU-IMF Troika, learning to judge the reflexes of an imperial apparatus where the locus of real influence is disguised and where there are, in the words of the European Commission chief, instruments of torture in the basement.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04 ... gotiating/

Unfortunately I seem to be unable to access the whole article now.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby shootist » Mon May 01, 2017 5:52 pm

atticus wrote:That may be true of clubs; it is not always true of partnerships, joint ventures, and a variety of other types of organisation in which people get together for a common purpose.


I don't know of too many organisations where you have to pay to get out. I don't doubt that some exist but it's members would most probably have been made aware of such a possibility before they joined.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby atticus » Mon May 01, 2017 6:21 pm

Ask yourself how many funding and other financial commitments the EU has made that will be of more than two years' duration.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby miner » Mon May 01, 2017 8:49 pm

shootist wrote:
atticus wrote:That may be true of clubs; it is not always true of partnerships, joint ventures, and a variety of other types of organisation in which people get together for a common purpose.


I don't know of too many organisations where you have to pay to get out. I don't doubt that some exist but it's members would most probably have been made aware of such a possibility before they joined.


And if the UK was not made aware of and/or did not agree to the financial basis (not necessary any actual figure, but certainly an indication of the calculation basis of the figure) of exiting the Club then it seems unreasonable of the UK to pay any exit fee. If the EU, in all its arrogance and stupidity, had never envisaged that anyone would leave the Club, then any failure on its part to clarify its position upon the decision of a Member Country to leave is a failure for which it must bear the consequences of its own lack of foresight. In any event, pulling a rabbit out of a hat having some £50bn price tag attached and seriously expecting it to be agreed is absurd in extremis.

The House of Lords has, apparently, determined that the UK has no financial liability to the EU upon leaving.

Regarding Atticus' comment re clubs, clubs are frequently involved in long-term commitments to rebuilding buildings, etc - commitments which often extend more than 2 years ahead and they have to find their own ways of dealing with them, even if members leave. Often in that situation, new members' fees and contributions more than compensate for the loss of contributions from existing members, but what these idiots in Brussels have engaged in for decades is taking on new members which are known beforehand to be "takers" and not contributors, in order to follow their self-serving, expansionist political agenda and aspirations.

My understanding is that there are only 4, maybe 6 net contributors to the EU - out of 28 members. Any organization which is so stupid as to have fewer than 25% of its members paying into its funds and the other 75% + draining its finances is a recipe for financial disaster and failure.

Does anyone know if any of the countries adopted as EU members in the past 20 years or so - let's say since 1995 - have been or have become net contributors?
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby LoveandPeace » Tue May 02, 2017 10:43 am

European integration has brought peace and prosperity to Europe


I do wonder what their timetable is for telling the Greeks this?
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby dls » Tue May 02, 2017 2:49 pm

Ask yourself how many funding and other financial commitments the EU has made that will be of more than two years' duration.


And why are such commitments necessarily not the commitments of the members from time to time?

My own expectation is that there may be particular commitments for which it is appropriate to pay up, but that no simple generalisation will cover the proper complexity.

The Treaty contains no such rules and there is no general model or metaphor which applies. The EU needs to see that it is not the equivalent of the CCCP with a right to send in the financial tanks if we displease it.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby atticus » Tue May 02, 2017 3:37 pm

dls is right: there is no simple generalisation that will cover the complexity.
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