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Et avec ceci?

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Mon May 01, 2017 2:47 pm

Why? What is to be achieved by picking holes in it? So you don't believe it has brought peace and prosperity: fair enough. But how is our position to be advanced by arguing the point with them? It is not a topic on which we need to reach agreement.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby LoveandPeace » Mon May 01, 2017 3:13 pm

atticus wrote:http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/european-council/2017/04/29-euco-guidelines_pdf/

The document is amazingly contrived and reads like a one sided balance sheet.

Lets face it, they don't want to lose us! Well, who wants to lose their cash cow? This document is structured in a way that they want to get as much from us as possible. Thought they were meant to be our frineds, according to the Remainers? They are friends we don't want to have, particularly when they are just after our money. Is that what you call true friendship?

Why are people so hung up on an ORGANISATION that have served no real purpose to the vast majority of Brits? Peope keep confusing nationality (Europe) with a power hungry organisation (EU) that serves no real basis of equality, in fact very much the opposite.

The bazarre part about that document is appears to not account for Britain having the stronger hand. Yes, I believe we do. We import more than we export to the EU so it's not in their interests to behave like idiots around the negotiating table.

Although, atticus, for someone of your status it suprises me that all your reason and any balanced arguement goes right out the window whenever this topic is debated.

Et avec ceci?
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby miner » Mon May 01, 2017 3:13 pm

It is not a topic on which we need to reach agreement.


Correct. We can agree to disagree on that matter and leave it at that.

You miss the important point that if not challenged, the devious EU will subsequently use that self-serving Brownie point against the UK in negotiations. It is a mistake to trust the EU to negotiate fairly. The document in question confirms beyond any doubt that fairness in negotiations in not uppermost in EU minds.

And, based on what I have just been reading in today's Press, it seems likely that no meaningful negotiation by the EU will take place at all. Juncker has started the ball rolling by insulting Theresa May - thereby exposing the weakness of the EU position. If the EU's position is one of strength, there is no need for Juncker to resort to insulting the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Somehow, Juncker nearly always seems to look and act is if he is inebriated.
Last edited by miner on Mon May 01, 2017 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby LoveandPeace » Mon May 01, 2017 3:15 pm

diy wrote:
the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed


Is standard terminology that means if we agree points early in the negotiation and later get to a problem we are not held to the earlier agreement. Its standard stuff and a method I've used myself with good outcomes. It allows people to free their mind of the big picture and focus on the elements being negotiated.


Yip I understand what diy is saying. Miner you should think about this before rushing to the keyboard.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby miner » Mon May 01, 2017 3:27 pm

LoveandPeace wrote:
Yip I understand what diy is saying. Miner you should think about this before rushing to the keyboard.


I understood only too well what diy was saying, and thought about it, hence my post. I did not rush to my keyboard. This is about Brexit, not some matter concerning some relatively minor property negotiation or whatever where normal principles might apply. This is uncharted and untested territory where the other side is basically a bunch of untrustworthy shysters.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby LoveandPeace » Mon May 01, 2017 3:44 pm

miner wrote:
LoveandPeace wrote:
Yip I understand what diy is saying. Miner you should think about this before rushing to the keyboard.


I understood only too well what diy was saying, and thought about it, hence my post. I did not rush to my keyboard. This is about Brexit, not some matter concerning some relatively minor property negotiation or whatever where normal principles might apply. This is uncharted and untested territory where the other side is basically a bunch of untrustworthy shysters.


Yes, I agree re you last sentence BUT we still have a legal process to go through. What if we agree an aspect of the negotiation and set it in stone only to get further into negotiations and to then realise we need to go back and tweek that aspect of the negotiotions for it all to tally. That could happen a lot and we could end wasting more time than needed if set in stone too soon. It's just reasonalbe. Chill, chill.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby atticus » Mon May 01, 2017 3:53 pm

Yes, that kind of thing happens when an overall package is being negotiated, made of of many smaller elements. There can be some reworking of the constituent parts when putting the final agreement in place. That should involve give and take on both sides.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby Labrador » Mon May 01, 2017 3:57 pm

Give and take on both sides if only!
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby atticus » Mon May 01, 2017 4:06 pm

The negotiations have yet to start. What we presently have is a phoney war, with a lot of posturing on both sides for the benefit of audiences at home.

It's the same in litigation- both parties set out their cases, emphasising their own strengths and the other's weaknesses. Yet if they mediate or try to settle by some other means, then usually each party is prepared to give something away.
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Re: Et avec ceci?

Postby miner » Mon May 01, 2017 4:18 pm

Whilst TM's Article 50 notification was respectful in content, It's unfortunate that the EU's response document was rather more of a Diktat than something which provided any real hope of meaningful negotiations taking place.

The UK must be careful not to waste 2 years negotiating with the EU if it looks at this early stage as if there is no serious intent on the part of the EU to negotiate meaningfully.

The EU is so used to getting its own way that this will likely be the first time in its history that it isn't going to happen. TM is right I believe in her view that no deal is better for the UK than a bad deal. Best get out asap I say and get on with developing our own future arrangements without unnecessary delay rather than farting around with these EU clowns. The writing seems to be on the wall already.
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