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Exit bill and new trade deal

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby dls » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:18 pm

At one point it was said that the EU wanted first to settle the divorce bill before negotiating any trade deal.
This looked more than a little unreasonable.
Now they say - let us settle the principles of settling any bill first. That may be much more amenable.
What has also become clear (I know I rather thick in not seeing this so clearly before) is that though the two topics are both of huge importance, and will in practice be linked, they are in fact quite separate.
We have triggered a process which terminates our membership. There may be much to agree, but at the same time there need not be a lot. If nothing else happens we simply cease to be members. To suggest that there needs be terms agreed is wrong. It would be nice to agree terms but as to what exactly (something better than you must owe us a lot of money, even though I cannot quite explain how or why) would be covered it is not clear. There is nothing which could be said to be a condition of leaving - 'Your exit will not happen / we will not leave, if you have not agreed X Y and Z' Our legal relationship just expires.

At the same time the ending of our membership also brings to an end our trading arrangements. There will need to be a considerable discussion about such, and it is clearly in the serious interests of both parties that such negotiations are successful and are concluded. I see no reason which might give the EU the right only to discuss the one after the other is concluded, save that they have no obligation to enter into such negotiations at all.
What the EU does have are 27 member countries who do need such an agreement. It is not the EU which loses out from a failure to reach an agreement, but the members states. The EU does not trade, the member states do.
It appears to me to be a simple conflict of interest. The EU wants its coffers filled. It suggests that in order to achieve this, it puts at risk the coffers of the trading elements of its members states. Is this harsh?
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Re: Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby atticus » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:03 pm

On the first part, you do appear to have been a bit slow.

As to the second, EU member states use the EU to negotiate collective trade deals with non-member states. These are not separately agreed. That the EU has been doing this for all the years of British membership explains why the UK has so few experienced trade negotiators.
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Re: Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby dls » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:29 pm

But on this occasion, there is a direct conflict between the member states and the EU.
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Re: Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:58 pm

dls wrote:But on this occasion, there is a direct conflict between the member states and the EU.

It will be a good test for the accountability it is said to not have.
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Re: Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby miner » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:03 pm

atticus wrote:On the first part, you do appear to have been a bit slow.

As to the second, EU member states use the EU to negotiate collective trade deals with non-member states. These are not separately agreed. That the EU has been doing this for all the years of British membership explains why the UK has so few experienced trade negotiators.


And how long does it take any competent and intelligent person to be a Trade Negotiator? It's not exactly Rocket Science! They rely on a bevy of backup people to refer specific issues to, anyway.

Your point about the UK having few "experienced trade negotiators" is a red herring, really.
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Re: Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:15 pm

The negotiations are the province of the European Council and must be approved by the European Parliament - both bodies comprised of representatives of the member states. The EU's side is therefore firmly in the hands of the member states. The Commission does not have a role to play.
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Re: Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:21 pm

miner wrote:And how long does it take any competent and intelligent person to be a Trade Negotiator? It's not exactly Rocket Science!


We haven't conducted any trade negotiations since 1973, so however long it takes, we don't have time. It is a highly-complex area and experienced negotiators tend to spend their entire careers doing it.

They rely on a bevy of backup people to refer specific issues to, anyway.


We haven't conducted any trade negotiations since 1973, so we haven't got any of those either.

Your point about the UK having few "experienced trade negotiators" is a red herring, really.


We have no experienced trade negotiators.
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Re: Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby miner » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:44 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote:
miner wrote:And how long does it take any competent and intelligent person to be a Trade Negotiator? It's not exactly Rocket Science!


We haven't conducted any trade negotiations since 1973, so however long it takes, we don't have time. It is a highly-complex area and experienced negotiators tend to spend their entire careers doing it.

They rely on a bevy of backup people to refer specific issues to, anyway.


We haven't conducted any trade negotiations since 1973, so we haven't got any of those either.

Your point about the UK having few "experienced trade negotiators" is a red herring, really.


We have no experienced trade negotiators.


Well, what countries do the EU's Trade Negotiators emanate from? The EU's Trade Negotiators don't exactly have a stellar track record, anyway in Trade Negotiations. How many are there and how many are UK people working in Brussels or wherever in these rôles? They'll be losing their EU jobs soon, anyway!

We can also recruit Trade Negotiators from elsewhere if we need them. I'm thinking of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the USA, & Canada in particular, but also the RoW.
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Re: Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby miner » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:58 pm


Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian prime minister, grandly styles himself as the “lead Brexit negotiator” for the European Parliament, but in truth that title is a misnomer. Mr Verhofstadt is not a Brexit negotiator at all, despite his best efforts to lobby otherwise.


Well, so much for the EU's so-called "Chief Brexit Negotiator"! :lol:

This on Michel Barnier is good entertainment, as well:

http://www.politico.eu/blogs/playbook-p ... -he-meant/

These two are a couple of professional EU clowns, not much else!
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Re: Exit bill and new trade deal

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:14 am

So the EU's trade negotiators are incompetent and incapable of negotiating a good deal, but we should use those of them who happen to be British to negotiate our deals?

But haven't they spent their working lives being brainwashed by the sinister conspiracy that is the EU? H

It's almost as if you are making everything up as you go along...
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