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what will Brexit do for us?

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:20 pm

Sorry, but this is a fatuous argument. The time for an argument as to whether the referendum was advisory or binding has been and gone - it was long gone when the referendum was held. It was not just one leaflet, it was generally accepted that the result would be implemented.

Would it have been proper for Parliament to have ignored a Remain vote, and decided to leave? Even if they were to decide that the public voted Remain but didn't actually want to Remain?
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby atticus » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:00 pm

Am I mistaken in recalling that Parliament voted to approve the giving of notice under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty?
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:01 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote:Sorry, but this is a fatuous argument. The time for an argument as to whether the referendum was advisory or binding has been and gone - it was long gone when the referendum was held. It was not just one leaflet, it was generally accepted that the result would be implemented.

It was generally accepted that the result would be remain.
What purpose the leaflet if everybody had already accepted the point?

Would it have been proper for Parliament to have ignored a Remain vote, and decided to leave? Even if they were to decide that the public voted Remain but didn't actually want to Remain?


Now that is a properly fatuous argument, unless your scenario seeks to reverse everything, in which case we have no information upon which to base any assessment.
The facts are that parliament was very firmly opposed to leaving the EU, we have a representative democracy and representatives have a clear duty to do what they think best for the country.
The fact is also that the referendum was advisory: parliament was very clear about that during the passage of the referendum bill.
Parliament has assumed that the electorate did not understand that the referendum was advisory: they are not entitled to make that assumption, not even if they base that assumption on the belief that the electorate has absolute trust in the Prime Minister, since that belief is thoroughly irrational.

For a proper interpretation of the referendum result, we must assume that the electorate knew all these facts and gave them due consideration...
We could also assume that the electorate saw through the lies and was aware of the manipulation of social media by foreign agencies...

If we assume that the electorate knew all these things, can we reasonably assume that the electorate expected parliament to ignore all these things: the lies, the foreign influence and their own clear and firm opinions, to launch into a course of action that they know to be destructive just because the Prime Minister promised it so?
Or did the electorate expect parliament to balance these factors against the vote? To look at the reasons why the vote went that way and seek other ways to address those problems?

They might have done this and found the balance in favour of the vote, but the point is that they have not done this, and in failing to do so they have neglected their duty and abandoned democracy altogether.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:04 pm

You are not mistaken, but you may have missed the fact that that vote was about giving permission to notify about a decision: it is pointedly lacking in any decision itself.

The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr David Davis) wrote:The Bill responds directly to the Supreme Court judgment of 24 January, and seeks to honour the commitment the Government gave to respect the outcome of the referendum held on 23 June 2016. It is not a Bill about whether the UK should leave the European Union or, indeed, about how it should do so; it is simply about Parliament empowering the Government to implement a decision already made—a point of no return already passed. We asked the people of the UK whether they wanted to leave the European Union, and they decided they did.

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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby tulkvmoxhay » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:36 am

My conclusion is that there are no issues so binary that there is not the capacity for whiningly partisan retrospection from the commentariat who trot out "When they voted that way in the referendum they were not voting for..." However I also believe that the necessity for representative democracy died when horses were replaced by cars, trains and planes -- and the Internet. I'm for a red button on the Parliament Channel.
When at the start of WW1 men 'flocked to the colours' and 'voted' to join in the war to end all wars,it's a truism that 'they weren't voting to get themselves killed'. It might (or indeed might not) put this referendum in context if one contemplates the sort of discussion that might result from a referendum on another subject, let's say capital punishment. Trenchant opposing positions on either side of the argument make the debate seem pretty binary. Life is God's to remove or eye for an eye issues. But then along come the nuances -- Mens Rea, capacity, mitigation and a myriad others. You can just hear the hair splitting after the event: "When they voted for capital punishment, they weren't voting for lethal injection"
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby atticus » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:04 am

Well, that is a load of confused waffle.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby dls » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:40 pm

that vote was about giving permission to notify about a decision: it is pointedly lacking in any decision itself.


Dangerous linguistic waters. 'Leaving the EU' is itself a misnomer. We make a decision to leave. We give notice. On the date specified what happens is the we cease to be bound by the treaty. It is the notice which is the action, the deed.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby atticus » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:01 pm

And Parliament voted, as I have said, to authorise that action.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:23 pm

atticus wrote:And Parliament voted, as I have said, to authorise that action.

But that vote was taken on a false premise: that a decision to leave had already been made.
The referendum was not a decision: that point has already been tested in the Supreme Court.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby atticus » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:37 pm

Take one horse.

Kill it.

Then flog it.
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