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what will Brexit do for us?

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby LoveandPeace » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:07 am

Smouldering Stoat wrote:No, it does not: consider, for example, this letter to local authorities from the Government:

As you are aware the Housing Revenue Account is a ring-fenced account within the authority’s General Fund, which means that local authorities have no general discretion to transfer sums into or out of it. The items to be credited and debited to your Housing Revenue Account are prescribed by statute. These include expenditure and income relating to property listed in section 74 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 and Schedule 4 to the 1989 Act (as amended) which specifies the debit and credit items to be recorded in the Housing Revenue Account. Permissible debit items include expenditure on repairs, maintenance and management, capital expenditure and rents, rates, taxes and other charges. Permissible credit items include rents, charges for services and facilities and contributions towards expenditure.


As the letter makes clear, former powers to transfer money to the general fund (which were in any event very tightly-controlled) have been repealed. Whether you will change your position is a matter for you.


This is only applicable to England? Therefore I would change my position on it BUT there is some wording that suggests it's not totally set in stone.

Your views on private education, while I am sure they are interesting, are neither here nor there given that I went to state schools.


Sincere apologies if you felt I was targeting you although I wouldn't want to be targeting anyone but it was about journalists. I never suspected you as being one. I just recognise the structure of society and many with views and opinions (journalists for example) don't really understand what they are talking about because they have no genuine personal experience. I am of the understanding a lot of media journalists were educated at private school therefore they would have no real understanding of council houses unless they have lived there. However that goes for most people who have never lived in a housing estate. None of that was intended to offend anyone. Sincere apologies if it did.

SS on this occassion I was not looking to upset you. :)
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby atticus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:38 pm

We now have an answer. The glorious deal shows that Brexit means:

- blue passports! A real victory there, chaps.
- Loss of employment, opportunities and standing in the world
- continued free movement of people, goods, services and capital
- no change otherwise.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby tulkvmoxhay » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:58 pm

Clause 52 appears startlingly ambiguous. I welcome other opinions.
Sentence 1 is 'Good Friday' and reflects pre EU participation by both countries since 1923. No problems.
Sentence 2 "enjoy rights as EU citizens". Does that mean rights in the same way as, say an American in Britain "enjoys rights", where American domestic law applies to its citizens worldwide but UK law is paramount subject to extradition, or does it leave room for EU to continue to enforce its writ (if this clause is retained and I agree it is subject to the diplomatic long grass of the second half of the clause) in what appears to be a black letter treaty concession by the UK?

Practical examples may come to mind on precise spousal or family immigration discrepancies between the jurisdictions but wider issues, Arrest Warrant -- even commercial cases could remain subject to primacy of ECJ.


52.

Both Parties acknowledge that the 1998 Agreement recognises the birth right of all the people of Northern Ireland to choose to be Irish or British or both and be accepted as such. The people of Northern Ireland who are Irish citizens will continue to enjoy rights as EU citizens, including where they reside in Northern Ireland. Both Parties therefore agree that the Withdrawal Agreement should respect and be without prejudice to the rights, opportunities and identity that come with European Union citizenship for such people and, in the next phase of negotiations, will examine arrangements required to give effect to the ongoing exercise of, and access to, their EU rights, opportunities and benefits
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby atticus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:23 pm

I am impressed that you were able to read as far as pargraph 52 before finding any ambiguity!

But surely para 52 reaffirms the Good Friday Agreement.

52. Both Parties acknowledge that the 1998 Agreement recognises the birth right of all the people of Northern Ireland to choose to be Irish or British or both and be accepted as such. The people of Northern Ireland who are Irish citizens will continue to enjoy rights as EU citizens, including where they reside in Northern Ireland. Both Parties therefore agree that the Withdrawal Agreement should respect and be without prejudice to the rights, opportunities and identity that come with European Union citizenship for such people and, in the next phase of negotiations, will examine arrangements required to give effect to the ongoing exercise of, and access to, their EU rights, opportunities and benefits.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby tulkvmoxhay » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:08 pm

Good Friday refers solely to the 'Irish Nation' in terms of citizens' rights. It is implicit I suppose that Ireland, "the Irish Nation", has and had at the time of signing subsumed some of its sovereignty into that of the EU and along with that comes the legislative supremacy of the ECJ. For that matter so had the UK. However stating it now in the way this draft does, when it refers to one nation in the ambit of the EU (with its ECJ baggage, if I may put it that way) and its citizens' rights while residing in a third party nation (ie the UK) seems to be prescriptive that the third party nation has or will grant extra territorial rights to the EU and thus the ECJ. However I would wish to be disabused of this cynical viewpoint that the May team of sherpas has dropped yet another one.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby atticus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:29 pm

The text of the "Good Friday" Agreement. Within it, starting at page 32, is an agreement between the British and Irish governments. The wording of para 52 of today's agreement (reproduced above) appears to draw on the intergovernmental agreement.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby tulkvmoxhay » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:48 am

The wording of the Good Friday Agreement never did stray into such matters as rights derived from citizenship of the EU and that was the nub of what struck me as inadvertence of the UK's part in this drafting.

Either the ambiguity is stupidity or duplicity, but it does appear to leave the door ajar for the ECJ to be able to assert itself in opposition to the Supreme Court or for the Supreme Court to bind itself to EU precedent "to give effect to the ongoing exercise of, and access to, their EU rights, opportunities and benefits ...for such people". And that power to rule extra-territorially creating two classes of law in Northern Ireland appears to exist in perpetuity unless this is resiled from in the "next phase of negotiations".

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.


which you will agree is materially different to the wide-ranging

The people of Northern Ireland who are Irish citizens will continue to enjoy rights as EU citizens, including where they reside in Northern Ireland. Both Parties therefore agree that the Withdrawal Agreement should respect and be without prejudice to the rights, opportunities and identity that come with European Union citizenship for such people and, in the next phase of negotiations, will examine arrangements required to give effect to the ongoing exercise of, and access to, their EU rights, opportunities and benefits.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby atticus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:04 am

Your second quotation omits the first sentence of paragraph 52.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby tulkvmoxhay » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:03 am

Though I omitted that first sentence, it was not because it was inconvenient to my point. I had earlier argued that the first sentence was nothing more nor less than the spirit and letter of the Belfast Agreement. This subsequent elaboration which is contained in the later part of art 52 departs from what was a perfectly noble and proper bilateral recognition of each of the traditions in the island of Ireland, by now granting 'rights' derived from EU citizenship to Irish passport holders who are permanently resident in a country outside the EU -- with the agreement of that third party state that such "rights" should be or will become enforceable. However, of course, the proposition is asymmetric as it does not allow for UK law to be supreme upon Northern Irish citizens living in Ireland.
Extra-terrestrial jurisdiction seems to be a growing trend in jurisprudence and no longer just Imperial wishful thinking.
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Re: what will Brexit do for us?

Postby atticus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:47 am

You may find this FT article by Jonathan Powell interesting:
https://www.ft.com/content/5654351e-db7 ... 3e61754ec6
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