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On Democracy.

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

On Democracy.

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:46 am

David Davis, the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union said in a speech a while back: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.”
Perhaps I am over tired, but I cannot fault that: it appears to be universally true.
So where does that leave us when the Former Home Secretary has so emphatically forbidden so much as an attempt to consider that the country might have changed its mind?
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Re: On Democracy.

Postby miner » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:13 am

There is no evidence or even any suggestion that the country (meaning the voters in this context) has changed its mind, even if a handful of has-been, brain-dead politicians who served us so inadequately many moons ago think that's the case. The best thing that you can do if you are overtired is to get back to the dreaming which you are so good at.

Perhaps Wednesday 29th might finally cause you to come to terms with the fact that the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union.

I wish you pleasant dreams, but I hope they exclude Bliar and his spin doctor Alastair Campbell who used to programme him, the treacherous Heseltine, & Clarke, Major, Mandelson and their worthless fellow-travellers.
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Re: On Democracy.

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:44 am

miner wrote:There is no evidence or even any suggestion that the country (meaning the voters in this context) has changed its mind...

That is entirely irrelevant. The point is that it has been forbidden in no uncertain terms, to do so.
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Re: On Democracy.

Postby shootist » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:57 am

Assuming that there is a form of democracy in this country, which is itself open to debate, it is largely limited to the matter of who is in charge for a while. That being the case, if the elected people in charge think that a change of mind would be damaging to the country, or to them, then no change is the rule. As an alternative perspective, Londoners voted Remain: 2,263,519, Leave: 1,513,232. Would you agree that London should declare UDI and remain in the EU while the rest of the country leaves? That would be democratic, in a way.
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Re: On Democracy.

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:54 am

shootist wrote:Assuming that there is a form of democracy in this country, which is itself open to debate...

Go on then: make the case that there is...
As an alternative perspective, Londoners voted Remain: 2,263,519, Leave: 1,513,232. Would you agree that London should declare UDI and remain in the EU while the rest of the country leaves? That would be democratic, in a way

Have I not yet made it clear that I a not in the least persuaded of the merits of this so called democracy which you all appear to hold as sacrosanct. It can be useful as a tool, but that is as far as it goes.
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Re: On Democracy.

Postby tph » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:51 am

We have not done what we have decided to do yet. If we do it and it does not work out there is always an option to rejoin the EU.

I think democracy allows for a change of mind however for practical purposes their needs to be a period of time between each decission otherwise there will be a descent into chaos.
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Re: On Democracy.

Postby shootist » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:00 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
shootist wrote:Assuming that there is a form of democracy in this country, which is itself open to debate...

Go on then: make the case that there is...


No. I said it was open to debate. You want to make a case for or against, feel free.

Hairyloon wrote:
shootist wrote:As an alternative perspective, Londoners voted Remain: 2,263,519, Leave: 1,513,232. Would you agree that London should declare UDI and remain in the EU while the rest of the country leaves? That would be democratic, in a way

Have I not yet made it clear that I a not in the least persuaded of the merits of this so called democracy which you all appear to hold as sacrosanct. It can be useful as a tool, but that is as far as it goes.


No, you have not. Neither do I hold the concept of democracy sacrosanct.
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Re: On Democracy.

Postby miner » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:37 pm

Hairyloon wrote: ..... The point is that it has been forbidden in no uncertain terms, to do so.


What a load of utter nonsense!

The UK is leaving the EU. The leaving process is scheduled to take a maximum of two years. From that point the UK is not a member of the European Union.

If the UK ever wanted to rejoin the EU (however unlikely that might be) and assuming that the EU still exists (which it is unlikely to for more than a few years) then the UK starts afresh from scratch and applies for membership as a new member. The application may or may not be accepted.

Ignore all the hot air and mindlessly stupid statements issued by the current EU Politburo (and certain brain-dead UK politicians). Most of the former won't be in their present positions for very long anyway.

What is it that you find so incredibly difficult to understand about those simple concepts and fundamental principles?

My belief is that you do understand these principles but just like trolling here because you have nothing better to do with your time!

Oh, and for the record, I am with Shooter on the matter of so-called "democracy". I don't hold the concept of democracy as sacrosanct either. But nor do I concur with your view that a Referendum is as you seem to think, merely "advisory" and that the result is there simply to be ignored.

Do catch up with your sleep asap!
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Re: On Democracy.

Postby dls » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:46 pm

If we do it and it does not work out there is always an option to rejoin the EU.

I would be very careful to place any reliance on such a possibility.
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Re: On Democracy.

Postby tph » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:21 pm

dls wrote:
If we do it and it does not work out there is always an option to rejoin the EU.

I would be very careful to place any reliance on such a possibility.


Why so? Do you really think they would not welcome us rejoining?
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