Discussing UK law. Links: swarb.co.uk | law-index | Acts | Members Image galleries

What did we vote for?

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

What did we vote for?

Postby Hairyloon » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:56 pm

Tony Blair has waded into the discussion. I have not yet read his speech, but it occurs to me that he is the embodiment of what happens if you do something big with a hastily cobbled plan.

If weIf we knew what we were voting for then we knew there was no plan.
If we knew what we were voting for then we knew about the Chilcott report.
If we knew what we were voting for then we knew there was no plan, we knew the next election was scheduled in four years, and four years seems a reasonable period in which to make a good plan.

What is the basis of the assertion that we voted for a hastily cobbled together plan?

Surely we voted for the government to make a plan ahead of the scheduled General Election in order that we vote on the government to actually implement the plan.
Take me to your lizard...
User avatar
Hairyloon
 
Posts: 9161
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:12 pm
Location: From there to here and here to there... Funny things are everywhere.

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby dls » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:08 pm

Not quite sure juts what you are getting at. I suspect the Blair brand remains toxic.

The demand for a plan is often dishonest. Yes we must try to plan ahead, but when you face huge external uncertainties, a lot of energy can be expended planning for what may never come about.

Similarly, at the moment, we can plan as much as we want, but we are not in charge, and again there are many ways forward. In reality the situation seems to me to be this. It would be unwise to expect or rely upon anything more than leaving without an agreement. Can we cope with that? We need to know how we might. Beyond that it is a matter of what is on offer, and at what cost. My own view is that we get as much as wecan on the basis of what arises from an honest intention on both sides to make the best trading deal. To the exact extent that the EU tries to make political point of punishing us for choosing freedom, to that extent we refuse to engage further.

For many years all negotiations with the EU have been frustrating because they were conditioned by our need to show a spirit of sticking by the club rules. In practice such negotiations left each and every one of our leaders limping away humiliated and broken. The one possible exception was Mrs T.

It make sense to plan for that which is most likely - a clean exit with no deal. That we can plan for. That plan can then be improved to cope with anthing over an above. Planning for much more suggests that we still buy in to the EU ideals, and are therefore half wishing we were not leaving. That may almost be true, but allowing it as a truth will do more damage to the end result than almost anything else.

Calls for a plan are really no more than attempts to undermine the process in the hope that somehow the exit vote will all go away.
David Swarbrick (Admin) dswarb@gmail.com - 0795 457 9992
User avatar
dls
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11642
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:35 pm
Location: Brighouse, West Yorkshire

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby miner » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:44 pm

If Marine le Pen should win in France, there'll likely be no EU left by the time of the next scheduled UK General Election in 2020.

dls wrote: It make sense to plan for that which is most likely - a clean exit with no deal.


Yes. THAT is the ONLY logical outcome to plan for - and it doesn't actually require any prior planning.

The exit should be clean and fast so that the UK can move on asap without influence from the EU. Bring it on!

dls wrote: Calls for a plan are really no more than attempts to undermine the process in the hope that somehow the exit vote will all go away.


Exactly.

The antics of weasel BLiar are beyond contempt, and the media should not even be giving him the coverage they are. He is, was, and always will be toxic.
miner
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:22 am

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby atticus » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:52 pm

The current PM seems to be taking a different approach.
User avatar
atticus
 
Posts: 18323
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:27 pm
Location: E&W

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:38 pm

I recommend reading Ian Dunt's Brexit: What the Hell Happens Now? on the point of leaving with no deal. Leaving with no deal will require a great deal more planning than leaving with one.
Smouldering Stoat
 
Posts: 6002
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:31 pm
Location: Near the Creek.

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:46 pm

And on Blair, Alex Massie is quite right in the Spectator*:

I don’t know about you but if I were to make a speech arguing that democracy should be abandoned, I probably wouldn’t begin by saying ‘I want to be explicit. Yes, the British people voted to leave Europe. And I agree the will of the people should prevail.’

That’s just me, however. When Tony Blair says this, he apparently means to encourage an anti-democratic insurrection. Which, I suppose, makes sense if you still suffer from an acute case of Blair Derangement Syndrome. Plenty of people evidently do.

If Blair is really as toxic and irrelevant as his critics aver, there’d be no need for all this fury. Blood vessels could remain unburst and eyes unpopped. The reaction to Blair’s speech suggests something else. It suggests that he must have a point. The very virulence of the manner in which his speech has been traduced hints at some dark but gnawing fear deep within the Brexit psyche: the fear of being found out. Because if that weren’t the case you could just greet Blair’s remarks with a shrug.


*Presumably the Speccie will now be added to the list of banned leftie rags.
Smouldering Stoat
 
Posts: 6002
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:31 pm
Location: Near the Creek.

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby dls » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:49 pm

I am sure we need to be making plans. As I say, we can make those plans and add on whatever comes on top through the negotiations. The trouble is that all those asking forplans seem to want to plan to bend the knee to whatever degree is required to make it look as if we never left.
David Swarbrick (Admin) dswarb@gmail.com - 0795 457 9992
User avatar
dls
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11642
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:35 pm
Location: Brighouse, West Yorkshire

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:55 pm

All of them? Really?

We've got two years. Negotiations are likely to go to the wire. It would seem sensible to make plans for more than one eventuality.
Smouldering Stoat
 
Posts: 6002
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:31 pm
Location: Near the Creek.

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby shootist » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:24 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote:We've got two years. Negotiations are likely to go to the wire. It would seem sensible to make plans for more than one eventuality.


And not at all sensible to reveal them all before we go in order for detractors and enemies to be best able to try and subvert them.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death my right to be offended by it."
User avatar
shootist
 
Posts: 3084
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:40 pm

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby Hairyloon » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:31 pm

dls wrote:Not quite sure juts what you are getting at. I suspect the Blair brand remains toxic.

Very much so. There are blazing rows afoot in the remainiac camps.

But what I am getting at is an analysis of what it was that we voted for. I cannot find any reasonable way to see it other than that we voted for this government to make preparations and for the next government to take us out.

We did not choose this government for its ability to steer a fully independent Britain through the uncharted waters of trading outside of a bloc; we chose that government to give us a referendum on the question. It was the only government we could choose that would give us that, and that is the only thing that we have properly given them a mandate for.

The demand for a plan is often dishonest. Yes we must try to plan ahead, but when you face huge external uncertainties, a lot of energy can be expended planning for what may never come about.

Similarly, at the moment, we can plan as much as we want, but we are not in charge...

If we are not in charge, then what happened to this precious "democracy" that we have heard so much about? Where is this Will of the People, who must not be disobeyed?
How is it that President May has unfettered, unchallenged and unamended charge of the entire future of this country?!

The question comes again to whether we knew what we were voting for. I can accept either yes or no on that, but what I cannot accept is the line that parliament are pushing which is that we knew what we were voting for, but that we did not understand the finer points and the constitutional complexities.

Here though, my argument falls apart a bit: should we have known that the Prime Minister was a spineless incompetent, and the Opposition was one about whom words fail?
I cannot construct an argument to suggest that we could have not known that. :?
But I think it fair to think we thought we had a government that respected the rule of law... it seems we got that a bit wrong. :x

The proper course of action, and I think without any doubt, the one we voted for is to invoke Article 50 after the next General Election. Whether that election should be as scheduled in 2020, or brought forward, I have no strong opinion on. Arguably it should have happened as soon as practicable after the referendum since both the government and the opposition were committed to remaining: how can we have faith in politicians that are so easily blown about by the winds of popular opinion?
Calls for a plan are really no more than attempts to undermine the process in the hope that somehow the exit vote will all go away.

You say that, but I am not persuaded. It is an anecdotal argument: some people are trying to undermine the process and make it go away, but many want it to happen because it is the right thing to do.

dls wrote:The trouble is that all those asking for plans seem to want to plan to bend the knee to whatever degree is required to make it look as if we never left.

It is not like you to so crassly generalise.
Take me to your lizard...
User avatar
Hairyloon
 
Posts: 9161
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:12 pm
Location: From there to here and here to there... Funny things are everywhere.

Next

Return to Brexit

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests