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What did we vote for?

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Re: What did we vote for?

Postby Hairyloon » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:40 am

miner wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:
miner wrote:We voted to leave the EU.

No, we voted to advise parliament that we should.


Well, I for one never voted to "advise parliament that we should" leave the EU. I voted to leave the EU.

And they say it is patronising to suggest that leave voters didn't know what they were voting for...
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Re: What did we vote for?

Postby shootist » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:13 am

Hairyloon wrote:And they say it is patronising to suggest that leave voters didn't know what they were voting for...


Oh! The delight that someone who has nothing to contribute finds something he can pounce upon as if it matters.
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Re: What did we vote for?

Postby dls » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:38 am

HL,


And they say it is patronising to suggest that leave voters didn't know what they were voting for...


and that is also patronising.

You misundertand the meaning of 'advisory'. You drew a false distinction between 'advisory' and 'compusory' before, and you are not the only one. The so called 'compulsory' referendum, was not in fact such - the wording appeared to leave a big hole.

Referenda have no formal or proper status - even within an informal constitution. They are however the direct and clear expression of the will of the people. If the politicians wanted more complex answers, they could have asked better questions. Blaming those who answer is hardly appropriate.


Can it be said that those who voted to remain knew what they were voting for? I doubt it. We will of course never know. It should not happen.

The still-want-to-remainers will no doubt take great heart from the support of Tony Blair.
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Re: What did we vote for?

Postby Hairyloon » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:57 am

dls wrote:HL,


And they say it is patronising to suggest that leave voters didn't know what they were voting for...


and that is also patronising.


Why so?
Miner has clearly stated what he thought he was voting for and it is not what he was actually voting for.

You misundertand the meaning of 'advisory'. You drew a false distinction between 'advisory' and 'compusory' before, and you are not the only one. The so called 'compulsory' referendum, was not in fact such - the wording appeared to leave a big hole.

Did it? I think that hole is only apparent upon a close legal analysis.
And you appear to want it both ways: a referendum that was clearly set out to be advisory must be treated as compulsory because a referendum that was set out as compulsory had a hole in it and could have been treated as advisory.

Referenda have no formal or proper status - even within an informal constitution.

Are you saying that the House of Lords has no status? Or that their report was improper?

They are however the direct and clear expression of the will of the people. If the politicians wanted more complex answers, they could have asked better questions. Blaming those who answer is hardly appropriate.

Direct perhaps, but clear? No.

It might have been a clear expression if there had been any pretence that it was to be a binding vote. There was none*: it was explicitly discussed in Parliament as to whether they should require a super-majority or consider the devolved nations, and they explicitly rejected those suggestions specifically on the grounds that it was an advisory referendum and therefore they did not need to.

You cannot have it both ways: either we knew what we were voting for or we did not.
If we did, then we knew unequivocally that the referendum was advisory and voted accordingly. If we did not know that, then we did not know what we were voting for.

* Some might point to the government's assertion that the vote would be followed as a pretence that it was a binding vote, but at the same time that same government was campaigning on a pack of lies. This is a black and white issue: either we accept that politicians lie, in which case we reject the government's assertion, or we refuse to accept that they do in which case we must reject the referendum.

And that is the crux of it. The nation is making the most important decision in modern history and it is not only making that decision based upon lies, it is underpinning the fundamentals of the constitution with the very principle that politicians tell lies.
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Re: What did we vote for?

Postby atticus » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:52 pm

pantomime season finished over a month ago.
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Re: What did we vote for?

Postby miner » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:58 pm

But the one with the Hairy Godmother continues!
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Re: What did we vote for?

Postby atticus » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:04 pm

co-starring minger as the Dame.
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Re: What did we vote for?

Postby Hairyloon » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:12 pm

The relevant question then, is will Cinders ever play the ball?
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Re: What did we vote for?

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:28 pm

Bravo. I think that calls for a splodge. :lol:
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