Discussing UK law. Links: swarb.co.uk | law-index | Acts | Members Image galleries

The exit

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Re: The exit

Postby dls » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:43 pm

I feel no great pain at the loss of EU membership. I can see that we will cause very considerable trouble within the EU on leaving. We are not the biggest net contributor, but we are one of the few. They will have enough difficulty without us wishing more on them. A stable Europe can only be of help to everyone. The EU has repeatedly demonstrated however an unwillingness to listen to our interests. The response is understandable.

I too would have a very different response to the possibility of a reversion to teh Common Market. It all beasically falls at the feet of John Major who should never have signed Maastricht.
David Swarbrick (Admin) dswarb@gmail.com - 0795 457 9992
User avatar
dls
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11919
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:35 pm
Location: Brighouse, West Yorkshire

Re: The exit

Postby miner » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:51 pm

I am on most of your above points on the same page as you, dls, but for the following:

I can see that we will cause very considerable trouble within the EU on leaving.


The simple fact is that it is the EU itself which has caused our departure. via its increasingly undemocratic and overpowering policies.

The EU has only itself to blame for the fact that our impending departure is going to cause them very considerable trouble - caused entirely by the utter intransigence and incompetence of its hierarchy.

The EU and its policies are responsible for having created mass unemployment - particularly the tragically high levels of youth unemployment in Southern Europe.

The EU's introduction of the EURO has led to the poorer countries such as Portugal and Greece and Italy becoming even poorer because those nations have had what for them is an overvalued currency imposed on them, thereby limiting their ability to export competitively.

The Euro has made Germany even more export-competitive because it is trading in a currency which is grossly undervalued in German terms.

Stability in Europe will come from countries being able to trade strongly world-wide and become stronger as a result of their own policies, instead of by being hamstrung by an increasingly bureaucratic EU with clueless management at its helm. I want to see a strong and stable Europe, but the EU has demonstrated that it can provide neither, despite the output from its self-serving PR bullshit machine. That is why I hold the view that the sooner the EU implodes or is disbanded the better for all of its member countries who are all capable and better-able to formulate policies best suited to them than the EU could ever do, fixated as it is with yet more centralization. All the EU is doing is ensuring that Germany maintains its relatively comfortable position at the expense of most of the other countries.

But for the weakness of John Major, we would have been out when Maastricht was signed. If Bliar had had any guts, he would have secured our withdrawal when he became PM, but he saw the EU as being a vehicle for his own subsequent personal enrichment.
miner
 
Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:22 am

Re: The exit

Postby dls » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:34 am

None of that challenges my assertion that additional woe will be suffered by the EU on our leaving. If nothing else, they will lose our sunstantial net contribution.
David Swarbrick (Admin) dswarb@gmail.com - 0795 457 9992
User avatar
dls
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11919
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:35 pm
Location: Brighouse, West Yorkshire

Re: The exit

Postby diy » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:16 am

One only has to look at the universe itself to know that you cannot expand in all directions at the same time without problems.
My suggestions are not legal advice
User avatar
diy
 
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: The exit

Postby atticus » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:10 am

Yes, our problems are as nought compared to the growing pains of the Universe.

I believe that the Universe has been around longer than the EU.
User avatar
atticus
 
Posts: 19031
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:27 pm
Location: E&W

Re: The exit

Postby shootist » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:46 pm

diy wrote:One only has to look at the universe itself to know that you cannot expand in all directions at the same time without problems.


The universe seems, with a sublime indifference, to have managed it quite well so far.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death my right to be offended by it."
User avatar
shootist
 
Posts: 3318
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:40 pm

Re: The exit

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:58 pm

miner wrote:No, not at all. You don't seem to understand that repair and refurbishment are not viable once a certain level of degeneration has occurred. It's analogous to a derelict building or a clapped-out car.

You might want to look at my car before you try that analogy. ;)
But a clapped out car will often yield a good engine, or other useful parts. Which it won't if you've sent the whole thing to the crusher.
I imagine that you're wealthy enough to not give such trivia the slightest attention, but we are talking about global issues: is the world wealthy enough to simply trash such a big investment?
You may think the EU is corrupt, but that is nothing compared to the corruption invested in the doctrine of the throwaway society...

Look at another analogy: low-cost airlines. The ones which have succeeded are exclusively those which were not created by large national airlines, such as BA, KLM, Lufthansa etc. Why did they all fail? Because their internal and financial culture was that of a major, subsidized, corporate national carrier and could not be altered and was incompatible with the needs of a low-cost carrier.

Another good analogy, you are on form tonight.
Now explain again how these airlines operate without the benefit of an internationally agreed system of air traffic control?
The same applies to the EU, which consists of a stubborn, centralization-inspired, pampered, champagne socialist thinking which will never be altered.

You seem to be conflating two distinct questions. The first is of what is the best outcome from this situation second is of how to achieve that outcome.
You seem to be myopic and oblivious to the fact that the EU is a POLITICAL entity which as such will never metamorphose back into a non-political trading-only bloc...

That may be the case, but if not for that, it would seem to be the better solution.

We tried to change the EU and the EU was not prepared to even accede to those relatively small changes.

What did we try to change and when? I do not recall any great efforts to that end. You surely do not refer to Cameron's pathetic effort?
Take me to your lizard...
User avatar
Hairyloon
 
Posts: 9567
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:12 pm
Location: From there to here and here to there... Funny things are everywhere.

Re: The exit

Postby miner » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:25 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
But a clapped out car will often yield a good engine, or other useful parts.


If it can, it's most certainly NOT "clapped-out" in my book!

Hairyloon wrote:I imagine that you're wealthy enough to not give such trivia the slightest attention,


Hairy, you really do have a vivid imagination! I am a Scotsman, and Scots don't throw much away! Ask my wife!

Hairyloon wrote: we are talking about global issues: is the world wealthy enough to simply trash such a big investment?


The EU has trashed itself from within. It has been a monumentally disastrous "investment" - a criminal waste of taxpayer funds, led by incompetent "champagne socialists". Socialists have something of a history of mismanagement and squandering of funds which have come under their control. It has nothing to do with "the world". It has do do with Europe, and the World consists of rather more than Europe.

Hairyloon wrote: You may think the EU is corrupt, ....


I don't "think" that the EU is corrupt. I know it is!

Hairyloon wrote: explain again how these airlines operate without the benefit of an internationally agreed system of air traffic control?


They seem to operate very safely, despite the shocking delays and massive costs overruns which have arisen in relation to the Swanwick Air Traffic Control Centre near Southampton.

I fly quite a lot and have never had any reason to feel unsafe. I also experienced an unscheduled (technically an emergency) landing in Greenland a few months ago in a full 250-seater aircraft, which was undertaken in complete safety.

Hairyloon wrote: You seem to be conflating two distinct questions. The first is of what is the best outcome from this situation second is of how to achieve that outcome.


The best outcome is to leave what is a cesspit of corruption and gross incompetence and to start afresh to achieve what is NEEDED, not what a bunch of unelected socialist officials seek to enrich their own salaries and careers. That is best achieved by a new beginning without carrying any of the baggage of the former. That is exactly what out Prime Minister has effectively been saying.

You seem to be myopic and oblivious to the fact that the EU is a POLITICAL entity which as such will never metamorphose back into a non-political trading-only bloc....

Hairyloon wrote: That may be the case, but if not for that, it would seem to be the better solution.


Maybe to someone who is blind to reality. You're flogging a dead horse.

Hairyloon wrote: We tried to change the EU and the EU was not prepared to even accede to those relatively small changes.


Hairyloon wrote: What did we try to change and when? I do not recall any great efforts to that end. You surely do not refer to Cameron's pathetic effort?


It depends on your interpretation of "great"! But again, you're flogging a dead horse.
miner
 
Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:22 am

Re: The exit

Postby atticus » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:53 pm

Any chance of playing the ball?
User avatar
atticus
 
Posts: 19031
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:27 pm
Location: E&W

Re: The exit

Postby shootist » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:12 pm

I think the ball was fairly well played there and in such games an occasional shin cannot help but offer itself for the kicking.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death my right to be offended by it."
User avatar
shootist
 
Posts: 3318
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:40 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Brexit

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron