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The exit

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

The exit

Postby dls » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:51 am

Labour now proposes that a deal is nogotiated as best can be, and is then sent to all the parliaments - including london, for approval. forgetting the difficulty in Europe, say it comes back to the uk. mPs are given the rigt to reject it. there is some loony land thought that Mrs May could return to the EU to renegotiate it (perhaps each of the other 27 nations could also exercise a similar right). She returns and says please nicely. Can anyone give any one reason to think that this would generate a single positive response from the EU? We do of course have the right not to agree to the terms offered - I fully expect we will not.

what dies the eu say? yes, of course mrs M we will re-open this before all 27 parliaments and agree to whatever is demanded by your opposition (whose main purpose is just to scupper any deal).

i donot know what the betting is the=at a hard brexit / wto rules will apply, but I doubt you can get significant odds against it.

When the EU wanted to agree with us, and had, perhaps, some sort of obligation to treat with us amicably and honestly, they signally failed to do so. Cameron went off with his begging bowl and returned with two grains of rice. There is no reason to expect them to deal now with us either honourably or amicably, and the entire process is likely to be quite unwieldy to the point of being impossible to manage. If the eu wanted deal honestly, then there would be a chance, but can anyone point to a single statment of honour by an EU leader on this topic? I have seen none.

The saving element of all this is that if we have to live under WTO rules, we can do so. there will be substantial pain for many people, but you only ever know the pain of what happens, and never of what might have been.
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Re: The exit

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:31 am

dls wrote:Cameron went off with his begging bowl and returned with two grains of rice.

That was pretty much all that he asked for though?

There is no reason to expect them to deal now with us either honourably or amicably, and the entire process is likely to be quite unwieldy to the point of being impossible to manage. If the eu wanted deal honestly, then there would be a chance, but can anyone point to a single statment of honour by an EU leader on this topic? I have seen none.


To be fair, can you blame them?
We (that is, our government) have engaged a dishonest process, for dishonest reasons, campaigned despicably, and, perhaps most significantly, allowed Nigel Farage to act as a mouthpiece and effectively a director of process. He has made a point of insulting everybody in the EU and everything it is about and now we are doing exactly as he is asking us to do.

As far as I can see, the only sensible way forward is for the electorate to vote no confidence in the administration and disown ourselves from their misconduct.
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Re: The exit

Postby dls » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:57 pm

farage was excluded from the leave campaign. True, he made a lot of foul noises, but I really do not think the noises coming from the official remain or leabve campaigns were significantly sweeter.

Are you really saying that it is proper for the EU to punish us for Farage? Is it not the case that any organisation which can take such a view thereby demonstrates exactly the evil qualities which justify not having anything to do with them at any cost?

And you miss the point entirely.
how what happened has no continuing significance. We are where we are, with real issues of how it is to be dealt with from now on.

I asked about a proposal for managing the eventual acceptance of a deal - if reached - with the EU. What is being proposed can have no practical effect. Why is it being proposed?
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Re: The exit

Postby miner » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:47 pm

dls wrote:Is it not the case that any organisation which can take such a view thereby demonstrates exactly the evil qualities which justify not having anything to do with them at any cost?


YES!

Theresa May has played her cards brilliantly. There won't be much negotiation with those champagne socialists. It would be pointless for us to waste our time dealing with those idiots. We could do a lot worse than trade under WTO rules.

And Hairy, you seem to have been asleep at the wheel; as dls says, have missed the point - again. You cannot alter history, mon ami!
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Re: The exit

Postby miner » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:16 pm

Quite an interesting article in yesterday's Daily Telegraph about Poland's "Mr Fixit" - Jaroslaw Kaczyński, who is effectively Poland's leading voice:

ttp://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay ... RxiA%3d%3d

The Malta gathering last Friday was supposed to engender "Unity" among the other 27.

There's not a chance of any unity amongst the 27, and the real problems of the EU magnify by the day.

The silence on the part of Juncker and his fellow-travellers is deafening, and the financial situation of Italy vis-à-vis its banks makes the Greek debt issue almost pale into insignificance. It looks more and more as if Italy will be the first member of EUROlooneyland to exit the EUROzone - either by its own decision or via a decision forced upon it.

The EU is an increasingly unholy shambles, and will implode within 5 years - or less. The Champagne Socialists of Brussels are the architects of its forthcoming démise.
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Re: The exit

Postby shootist » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:04 pm

It actually distresses me somewhat how the EU has turned out. If it had remained a basic trade organisation then I would probably have been a stalwart supporter, but the anonymous power brokers tried to make it into a United States of Europe and I think it is doomed to fail. The longer that failure takes, the worse will be the consequences.
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Re: The exit

Postby miner » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:24 pm

shootist wrote:It actually distresses me somewhat how the EU has turned out. If it had remained a basic trade organisation then I would probably have been a stalwart supporter, but the anonymous power brokers tried to make it into a United States of Europe and I think it is doomed to fail. The longer that failure takes, the worse will be the consequences.


I echo your sentiments.

All we ever voted to join was a trading bloc - the Common Market, aka the European Economic Community.
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Re: The exit

Postby diy » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:54 am

It will be interesting to see what goes on in the French elections this may impact the future of the EU. With hard brexit they have the small challenge of who pays the bills going forward.

it seems clear any movement towards helping the UK will have a price tag
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Re: The exit

Postby shootist » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:32 pm

diy wrote:It will be interesting to see what goes on in the French elections this may impact the future of the EU. With hard brexit they have the small challenge of who pays the bills going forward.

it seems clear any movement towards helping the UK will have a price tag


Given that relations between Britain and France have over the last 800 years or so varied between war at worst and cordial dislike at best I doubt the French elections will change anything of consequence as far as we are concerned.
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Re: The exit

Postby dls » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:10 pm

it seems clear any movement towards helping the UK will have a price tag


Nobody I think is asking for this. What we are asking for and are entitled to is a respect for the decision made, and a proper negotiation based upon mutual self interest, not on EU Commissioners in spite.
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