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An MP's duty...

For discussion of all matters relating to the UK's departure from the European Union

Re: An MP's duty...

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:38 pm

dls wrote:The only difference is that our lot are better answerable to us for our interests.

In what way are they answerable? Don't tell me that we vote them out at the next election: you know as well as I do that we are at best offered Sophies's choice of party stooges. Consider the by-elections this week: how would you vote in order to make anyone answerable? And what questions would be asked by each option?

There is an unspoken assumption by many who support Europe. It is that somehow the EU is inherently more liberal than our own government. An example is the rather asinine suggestion that we have Europe to thank for our employment protection rights (made by certain trades union leaders). I am glad we have the rights we have. In fact many originate from Europe, but there is no possible evidence that more or less similar rights would not have been granted if we had been outside the EU.


I don't think anyone assumes it is inherently so, but if you are suggesting that this government would have readily granted such rights, then please make your case. There is already talk of a bonfire of rights and regulations. linky 1, linky 2.
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Re: An MP's duty...

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:17 pm

Of course it is not possible to prove that the UK Government would not have granted the same rights of its own volition; not without visiting an alternative reality in which we never joined the EU. We can only observe that they did not in fact do so, until in many cases they were forced to.
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Re: An MP's duty...

Postby miner » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:14 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote:Of course it is not possible to prove that the UK Government would not have granted the same rights of its own volition; not without visiting an alternative reality in which we never joined the EU. We can only observe that they did not in fact do so, until in many cases they were forced to.


We never "joined the EU" as you falsely claim. We joined the European Economic Community, which was a very worthy organization.
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Re: An MP's duty...

Postby atticus » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:16 pm

If the UK did not become a member of the EU, why was it necessary to hold a referendum on the question of remaining in it?
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Re: An MP's duty...

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

The significance of the underlined word, of course, is that (as we have previously seen) it does not appear on the ballot paper in the 1975 referendum.
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Re: An MP's duty...

Postby miner » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:27 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote:The significance of the underlined word, of course, is that (as we have previously seen) it does not appear on the ballot paper in the 1975 referendum.


It didn't need to be included then, as all that existed in 1975 was the Common Market - which was not a political entity.
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Re: An MP's duty...

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:38 pm

Nevertheless, the 1975 referendum referred to "the European Community (the Common Market)" and not the European Economic Community.
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Re: An MP's duty...

Postby atticus » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:43 pm

Even in the early 1970s,the EC was a political entity, and not just a trading bloc. All kinds of laws were made to achieve harmonisation, to achieve a levelling of the playing field in trade. This involved equalisation of social policy, of economic policies, regulation of state aid, imposition of fishing quotas. Shall I go on?
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Re: An MP's duty...

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:00 pm

Only if you want to be accused of having been bribed.

That further progress towards union was envisaged is made clear in the Treaty of Rome: among the opening paragraphs is the famous reference to "ever closer union." And, as we've seen in another thread, the Yes campaign in 1975 were quite explicit about progress towards political union.
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Re: An MP's duty...

Postby miner » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:07 pm

atticus wrote:If the UK did not become a member of the EU, why was it necessary to hold a referendum on the question of remaining in it?


Because we ended up in the EU by default - via the dishonesty of Edward Heath - who failed to tell us what we were ACTUALLY joining in 1972 and which was not disclosed in the 1975 referendum, and because of the weakness of successive British Prime Ministers, not least John Major.

Under this scenario, the European Economic Community stealthily transformed itself into an increasingly undemocratic, corrupt, over-bureaucratized European Union - a political entity hell-bent on centralization and eliminating national sovereignties.

Many folk with greater detailed knowledge of Tony Bliar's premiership than I have hold the view that he is more latterly responsible for Brexit. He offered us one, as I recall, but failed to deliver because he knew what the outcome would be. Cameron provided us with the long-promised referendum, believing that somehow he could cajole the voters into voting to remain in the EU, but arrogantly and badly misjudged the British voters.

PS - It seems that the presentations by the Noble Lords over the past couple of hours have generally been of a far superior quality than those I observed yesterday, but since the BBC coverage did not caption the speakers' names, I don't know who many of them actually were - probably because they're not former MPs.
Last edited by atticus on Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove scurrilous and irrelevant allegation/innuendo
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