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Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

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Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

Postby dls » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:28 pm

We are about to vote (by now have voted) to renew Trident.

It has always seemed to me that Yes, we have had relative peace, but No, I cannot see how that can be ascribed to nuclear deterrence.

Another thought to day is the argument for deterrence has striking similarities with the arguments put forward by the gun lobby in the US.

In essence, you make people so afraid of you that they dare not start a fight.

I am not sure how far it has got the USA.
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Re: Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

Postby 3.14 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:38 pm

4 subs. why are they so expensive?
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Re: Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

Postby shootist » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:01 pm

dls wrote:We are about to vote (by now have voted) to renew Trident.

It has always seemed to me that Yes, we have had relative peace, but No, I cannot see how that can be ascribed to nuclear deterrence.

Another thought to day is the argument for deterrence has striking similarities with the arguments put forward by the gun lobby in the US.

In essence, you make people so afraid of you that they dare not start a fight.

I am not sure how far it has got the USA.


I mean no offence when I say that I doubt you fully understand the American situation in regard to firearms. Not do I think you have a full grasp of the effects of nuclear deterrence. In respect of the nuclear issue, consider the cold war if the West had no nukes at all and the USSR did. The situation that you have to review is the imbalance, not the balance. With the USA the first thing to consider is that there are millions of firearms owned by millions of people across the whole spectrum of society. Imagine the situation if only the criminals had firearms.

In the UK there is often discussion about arming the police and many people take the attitude that if we arm the police then criminals will arm themselves. I believe that criminals who arm themselves do so in order to deal with people who are not armed. If an armed gang were planning on robbing a bank and found out for sure that armed police would be there waiting for them do you think that the gang would just take more guns?

I wouldn't offer this as proof that the MAD principle prevented nuclear war, but I feel certain that if there had been a significant imbalance in nuclear arsenals then the USSR's territorial ambitions would have been comfortably fulfilled, even if some of the territory turned out to be somewhat cratered and radioactive.
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Re: Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

Postby atticus » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:37 pm

If having a grasp of the firearms issue in the states means putting up with regular mass murders, then I am delighted to let you sneer at me.
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Re: Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

Postby shootist » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:45 pm

atticus wrote:If having a grasp of the firearms issue in the states means putting up with regular mass murders, then I am delighted to let you sneer at me.


Tiresome, even by your low standards.
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Re: Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:59 pm

3.14 wrote:4 subs. why are they so expensive?

Manufactured under license..?
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Re: Nuclear Deterrence / NRA

Postby dls » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:17 pm

Sorry - NRA

I am not saying that the arguments are the same - just that there is enough of a parallel to require an examination.

No Shootist, I think you mistake it:
In respect of the nuclear issue, consider the cold war if the West had no nukes at all and the USSR did.


Begs the question of whether the USSR would have built their weapons if the West had not first taken upon itself the right to do so and to use them.
The question you pose was never faced by the West. It was the exact position faced by the Russians.

In the UK, we do not have many guns, and so we do not need many guns. In the US every time a gun is sold to one person, two more need guns to defend themselves.
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Re: Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

Postby atticus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:06 am

You may think me tiresome; but so very much worse than tiresome is the daily slaughter committed in the US by people wielding guns. So very much worse than tiresome is the fact that kids in kindergarten are given survival training in practice lockdowns. So very much worse than tiresome is the number of shootings by people acting in erm "self defence" of people who are unarmed.

Yes, shooter, sneer on.
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Re: Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

Postby diy » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:45 am

a few years ago, I'd have been against trident as an outdated, unnecessary weapon, but having read up on what is proposed and given where we are likely to be in a few years with other superpowers. I think we need the capability.

It's cheaper than sticking them in space and it's a flexible setup.
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Re: Nuclear Deterrence / NSA

Postby shootist » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:38 am

atticus wrote:You may think me tiresome; but so very much worse than tiresome is the daily slaughter committed in the US by people wielding guns. So very much worse than tiresome is the fact that kids in kindergarten are given survival training in practice lockdowns. So very much worse than tiresome is the number of shootings by people acting in erm "self defence" of people who are unarmed.

Yes, shooter, sneer on.


You are adopting the typical posture of the small minded liberal who sees something unpleasant and responds by wailing "Oooh! That's so baaad." but who is unable or unwilling to try and offer a solution that is a bit more than the equivalent of calling upon the tooth fairy to wave her wand. Your last sentence in particular shows your willingness to accept malicious political drivel as fact because it supports your opinions. While there has indeed been some unlawful shootings, so many that are hawked by political activists as being murders have actually been later found to be carried out on the basis of a rational decision made correctly under pressure.

Now, you mention sneering. I am unaware that I have sneered, on this thread at least. Perhaps you could clarify if I have and whether you are objecting to sneering per se or because you feel I am trespassing upon your royal prerogative of being the only board member permitted to do so.
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