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Fracking and trespass laws

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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby atticus » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:17 pm

I asked questions to get more detail.
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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:26 pm

atticus wrote:I asked questions to get more detail.

Did you?
When?
But if it is fundamentally flawed then you don't need more detail.
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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby atticus » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:34 pm

Yawn.
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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby Slartibartfast » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:21 am

Hairyloon wrote:
Imagine Claire Rayner as SOS Health, saying "Prime Minister, the people elected me to run the hospitals and I shall spend what I consider necessary."

That would be the tricky bit: deciding on the distribution of funding, but why not give the taxpayer more control over how it is spent?
For example, half of your tax goes into central funds, but you can allocate the other half to the departments you choose.


An interesting idea, but I think there are major obstacles -

The state must provide certain services whether electors hypothecate or not, so in effect people will allocate their half to sympathetic causes and the state will use the other half to provide the less popular things. Nothing will have changed, just a facade of democracy.

I might wish to vote my taxes to the Ministry of Justice so that prisoners can have a better standard of health care, more education and nicer curtains. You might wish to vote your taxes to the Ministry of Justice so that more prisons are built and more people are jailed. How would each of us express our will? And see it carried out?

Special interest groups would interfere. A good tear-jerking campaign from the NSPCC might result in 86% of all funding being voted to the protection of children from neglect and abuse. This could only be achieved by closing down old peoples homes and letting roads rot to mud. The government would have to over-rule any hypothecation which went significantly outside the normal distribution.

Finally, it ignores geography. I don't want to vote money for better hospitals unless I know that I will have access to one of them. If a large number of Lancastrians nominate road improvement and this is used to widen the M25, they won't be happy.
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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:45 am

I would suggest that those are details rather than major obstacles: most of them have a workaround, apart from the point about the façade.
Remember this is an enhancement to a democratically elected government not a replacement. You would know who is the Minister for Justice and you would know which way he leans: if he is the prison building type, then you might prefer to have another think about your choice.
There is a question of how often you get to choose: is there any reason why this could not be as often as you pay your income tax?
That ought to get around your NSPCC problem: they may get 86% this week, but the panic over the roads should swing a lot of it back next week.
They could also provide live(ish) figures about how much they want and how much they've got so people can make a more informed choice.
It does not have to ignore geography. Perhaps it would even be possible to allow a degree of micro-management: you could, for example look at the list of things that they want to spend our taxes and put some of yours towards a machine that goes ping for your local hospital.
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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby Slartibartfast » Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:33 am

I do not think those comments successfully overcome the difficulties. In fact, they simply add more difficulties.
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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby atticus » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:04 am

Yes, I think this idea has legs. One concern is that individuals who may not wish to have to look into all the details of public expenditure and money raising. They might also be worried what might be overlooked. Some may get apathetic or bored of going through this every pay day.

To counter this, groups of like-minded people might come up with overall plans for government expenditure and fund raising, so that we could opt for an overall plan. And to counteract the tailing-off as people get bored and apathetic, this choice could be made periodically, say every five years. There could be an organised vote in which people choose between plans.

To simplify things, selection of preferred plan could take place by local areas of about 100,000 people. And just to be fair, we ought to include non taxpayers. The plan which gets the largest number of votes wins that area's vote.

I estimate there would be about 650 such areas in the UK. Each would then be represented - by a supporter of the winning plan in each area - in a national get together. In that get together, those representatives have lots of discussions, and work out a plan on which a majority of them can agree.

I reckon we could make this happen!
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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:40 am

atticus wrote:Yes, I think this idea has legs.

Is that sarcasm?
One concern is that individuals who may not wish to have to look into all the details of public expenditure and money raising. They might also be worried what might be overlooked. Some may get apathetic or bored of going through this every pay day.

It is optional: they can just leave it to the government, or they can set it up to go how they think it should and leave it so. The idea was that they could, if they wanted, review it every pay day.

To counter this, groups of like-minded people might come up with overall plans for government expenditure and fund raising, so that we could opt for an overall plan. And to counteract the tailing-off as people get bored and apathetic, this choice could be made periodically, say every five years. There could be an organised vote in which people choose between plans.

I don't need to explain to you the flaws in that idea. :roll:
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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:41 am

Slartibartfast wrote:I do not think those comments successfully overcome the difficulties. In fact, they simply add more difficulties.

Perhaps, but they are less difficult difficulties.
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Re: Fracking and trespass laws

Postby atticus » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:06 pm

Hairyloon wrote:I don't need to explain to you the flaws in that idea. :roll:
that reads a lot like "generic naysaying" to me.
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