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Politics and The Truth

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Re: Politics and The Truth

Postby dls » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:18 pm

The programmedid seem to beg a few questions

George Bush is said to have claimed x

Others post a corrective article stating he didn't claim X

The analysis followed asked why people ar so stupid as not accept the correction. That assumes that because one assertion is called a correction (and I made it), that is the one must be true. The prgramme does not seem to allow that the 'correction' is just as likely to be a lie as is the original statment.

There is one thing it did occasionally get right (before the BBC people forgot it) - that there are many things which looklike facts but which are inherently not assertions of truth.

Famous examples are the the LibDem promise of no university fees at the 2010 election, and the so called "£350 million pounds for the Health service promise'

A promise is a statement of present intention. A later change of intention does not make the earlier promise (if such it was) a lie.

There is a paradox about listening to the head of MI6. His entire career is based upon the assumption that he is a very successful liar. So how can anyone attribute truth or falsity to whatever he says? His statements can only be left outside any question of truth or falsity.

Who was it who spoke of the known unknowns?
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Re: Politics and The Truth

Postby atticus » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:57 pm

Donald Rumsfeld.

There is a paradox about listening to the head of MI6. His entire career is based upon the assumption that he is a very successful liar.
Really? Are you sure?

What about the main points:

"tribalism"?

"echo chambers"?

Listening to each other?

So far the responses to this thread have been negative, and lacking in engagement. If you guys want to perpetuate the poisoned atmosphere of public discourse, well, fine.
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Re: Politics and The Truth

Postby dls » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:33 pm

Yes. Not every step in such a career is built upon dishonesty, but it is unique as a profession in that its very essence is the successful use of deceit.

Lawyers are often mistakenly accused of the same, but the accusation is mistaken because it confuses a lawyer's argument with an assertion of truth. It is not, generally, an assertion of truth. It is an invitation to the court toaccept the truth of what the client asserts.
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Re: Politics and The Truth

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:01 pm

dls wrote:Yes. Not every step in such a career is built upon dishonesty, but it is unique as a profession in that its very essence is the successful use of deceit.

Lawyers are often mistakenly accused of the same, but the accusation is mistaken because it confuses a lawyer's argument with an assertion of truth. It is not, generally, an assertion of truth. It is an invitation to the court toaccept the truth of what the client asserts.

Let us not start discussing lawyers.
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Re: Politics and The Truth

Postby shootist » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:55 pm

atticus wrote:What about the main points:

"tribalism"?


An easy way of dismissing anything not agreed with. More abused in it's use than accurately representing tribal loyalties.

atticus wrote:"echo chambers"?


Like forums?

atticus wrote:Listening to each other?


Some people mistake waiting to interrupt in order to pour scorn upon another's statement as listening.

atticus wrote:So far the responses to this thread have been negative, and lacking in engagement. If you guys want to perpetuate the poisoned atmosphere of public discourse, well, fine.


I am really looking to avoid the usual 'ad hominem' allegations, but I think the above criticism applies to you more than others in this thread. Your responses appear negative and you haven't engaged at all in the discussion.

P.S. With respect to the former head of MI6 being a liar, I have often thought similarly of actors / actresses who make some allegation or claim of things long past and of high publicity value. Such people play pretend for a living.
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Re: Politics and The Truth

Postby atticus » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:22 pm

You obviously wasted that 45 minutes by not listening. The words with which you take issue were all used, the concepts discussed.

And as for the rest, all I can say is that the way you see me is absolutely the way I see you.
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Re: Politics and The Truth

Postby atticus » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:43 am

echo chamber - see the second definition. This can be a forum, but more generally the broader circle both on line and real world.
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Re: Politics and The Truth

Postby shootist » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:00 pm

atticus wrote:You obviously wasted that 45 minutes by not listening. The words with which you take issue were all used, the concepts discussed.


I was trying to suggest that what was said in that program was for the most part blindingly obvious and has been part of history for as long as history has been recorded. This does not seem to me to reflect upon you personally.

atticus wrote:And as for the rest, all I can say is that the way you see me is absolutely the way I see you.


So, we have something in common. But on that point...

atticus wrote:So far the responses to this thread have been negative, and lacking in engagement. If you guys want to perpetuate the poisoned atmosphere of public discourse, well, fine.


I see no poison in this thread until the above post in which seems more to define how you feel about a person simply disagreeing with you. Neither do I see any engagement from you. I posted opinions upon some matters spoken of in the broadcast. You choose to have a moody.

So, engage if you will, and I do not mean an 'engagement' in military terms. Your profession is dialogue, why not try it here? At least two people have done you the courtesy of listening to that program. You might at least deal with their responses in context.
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