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A(nother) christian party leader

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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby preacherman » Wed May 03, 2017 7:09 pm

Voldemort wrote:
preacherman wrote:I wouldn't say that, I was responding. Some of it might be going in.

Preacher, in relation to religion, when you hear or read about a view that contradicts your own – do you yourself look to critically analyse the opposing evidence before dismissing it? Or do you believe it to be intrinsically false (because of the contradictions to your belief) – hence, why bother looking further?

How did you come to be an Evangelical Christian, as opposed to following Judaism or Buddhism or [insert any other religion] for example – was it an informed decision having researched other beliefs?


well, where I am now, I know that being a christian is the only truth. I have a relationship with God, that is what it is truly about, not religion. When you know something you don`t need to look at other peoples evidence.I am not trying to convince myself, but I am happy to discuss other view points and evidence.

Yes I do study and I am in process of studying in respect to Christianity, and its various viewpoints,which I suppose is a critical analysis of various viewpoints regarding the bible, and also other viewpoints. At the moment I am looking at ebionism, Gnosticism and Arianism.

But regarding 3.14 and hairy etc! there is a lot of going around the houses, sarcasm, and basic nonsense talk, and there very lovable and all that, but that`s why I said they dont believe in God. I mean it is not rocket science, you either believe in God or you dont. saying I don`t know means no. You dont sit on the fence when a bus is heading at you, you move! because you believe the bus is coming.

There is no evidence to support the theory often quoted as fact, that the earth is 65 million years old. The Bible is evidence of fellow human beings. Even Indian gurus quote Jesus, but its out of context.Jesus is the highest personality in philosophy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE

The bible sums it up:

because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation.

When i was younger I looked at a few things, chakras, and all that nonsense,positive thinking, self help, most of which take parts of the bible, which is great, but its not the full story. I always believed there was a God but traditional Christianity (the stuff that sends people to sleep in a pew) never really interested me. Then I heard it put differently, in ways I could apply it to my life.As well as life experiences and thinking, looking etc.
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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby shootist » Wed May 03, 2017 7:24 pm

Preacherman, you seem to have avoided my query on the Koran fitting all of your requirements for evidence value, and indeed theoretically better than the Bible.
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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby Hairyloon » Wed May 03, 2017 8:47 pm

preacherman wrote:I have a relationship with God, that is what it is truly about, not religion. When you know something you don`t need to look at other peoples evidence.


I think you do: it is your duty as a good Christian to look at the evidence and point out why it is wrong. How else are the unbelievers to be saved?
But it is not enough just to say "you are wrong because the bible says so": that kind of argument holds no water.

But regarding 3.14 and hairy etc! there is a lot of going around the houses, sarcasm, and basic nonsense talk, and there very lovable and all that, but that`s why I said they dont believe in God. I mean it is not rocket science, you either believe in God or you dont. saying I don`t know means no.


I'm reading that you hold belief (in respect of gods) as synonymous with worship. I may have misread you, but either way, that is wrong. I may yet find some evidence that persuades me he exists, but he would have a lot of work to do to convince me he is worth worshipping.

You dont sit on the fence when a bus is heading at you, you move! because you believe the bus is coming.


You may want to re-think that analogy unless you mean to suggest that god is going to run us down for heresy.
There is no evidence to support the theory often quoted as fact, that the earth is 65 million years old.


I agree. All the evidence points to 4.5 billion years.
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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby preacherman » Wed May 03, 2017 9:26 pm

shootist wrote:Preacherman, you seem to have avoided my query on the Koran fitting all of your requirements for evidence value, and indeed theoretically better than the Bible.


the koran was written by one man, Mohammed known as the founder of islam born in mecca lived and worked as a merchant.we must first examine the origins of his revelations and of the Koran and ask ourselves how he arrived at his concept of God, to be exact Allah. Mohammed named god, Allah. whereas In the Bible God told Moses I AM that I AM.

Mohammed gave this name Allah to this one god in whom he now believed after he had a so called revelation through the angel Gabriel. This came after he had contact with Jews and Christians and had heard about there being one true God, as a pose to the many gods that were worshiped. up to about 40 years of age he was a pagan.The name Allah in pre-islamic Arabia seems to have been a special deity as distinguished from numerous other (lesser) tribal gods. It is known that everywhere the Arabic language was spoken the name Allah was used to distinguish the supreme deity from others. Often it was used in association with the sun god, the personification of sun worship.

Mohammad is said to have had his revelations in a state of ecstasy, breaking out in a strong sweat and hearing a deafening clang as he fell to the ground. He had approached the Jews saying he was the last prophet, but they rejected that, then it seems the koran appeared. This time the Angel Gabriel was giving a different message, how can the Angel Gabriel declare Jesus as the son of God to the Jews but not to Mohammad.

so for evidence value, I much more prefer a straight statement (s) from a fellow human being, after many years of history, and prophets foretelling events to come, now past, that I can look upon and judge for myself: 'We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life' 1 John 1.

'But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed' (Isaiah 53:5) (700 years or so before it occurred).


'Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water' (john 19;34).
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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby preacherman » Wed May 03, 2017 10:02 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
preacherman wrote:I have a relationship with God, that is what it is truly about, not religion. When you know something you don`t need to look at other peoples evidence.


I think you do: it is your duty as a good Christian to look at the evidence and point out why it is wrong. How else are the unbelievers to be saved?
But it is not enough just to say "you are wrong because the bible says so": that kind of argument holds no water.

But regarding 3.14 and hairy etc! there is a lot of going around the houses, sarcasm, and basic nonsense talk, and there very lovable and all that, but that`s why I said they dont believe in God. I mean it is not rocket science, you either believe in God or you dont. saying I don`t know means no.


I'm reading that you hold belief (in respect of gods) as synonymous with worship. I may have misread you, but either way, that is wrong. I may yet find some evidence that persuades me he exists, but he would have a lot of work to do to convince me he is worth worshipping.

You dont sit on the fence when a bus is heading at you, you move! because you believe the bus is coming.


You may want to re-think that analogy unless you mean to suggest that god is going to run us down for heresy.
There is no evidence to support the theory often quoted as fact, that the earth is 65 million years old.


I agree. All the evidence points to 4.5 billion years.


nothing to do with God running anyone down, I just meant to say to you that you don`t believe.Why do you keep making excuses by saying' its not I dont believe, its I dont know'.

I am happy to discuss evidence with you, but when it comes to the bible you dont even want to discuss, seriously,the content. what do you want to talk about then reincarnation? who gives us all the new body`s then? where is the evidence for it? the book of charma by deepak chopra! are you coming back as an ant? or are you a 4.5 billion year old evolved time team carbon dating specialist team leader ant :lol:
I am not sure what you mean when you mention worship. I think you might have a wrong concept about that. Well God loves you more than anyone else that should be enough to give him a try- the very hairs on your head are numbered by him-
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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby 3.14 » Wed May 03, 2017 10:11 pm

Before anyone can discuss evidence, you need to understand what it is because it seems clear to me that you do not.
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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby Hairyloon » Wed May 03, 2017 11:14 pm

preacherman wrote:nothing to do with God running anyone down, I just meant to say to you that you don`t believe.Why do you keep making excuses by saying' its not I dont believe, its I dont know'.

Still wrong (and not just with a chronic shortage of apostrophes: it's that I don't believe it matters.

Well God loves you more than anyone else that should be enough to give him a try- the very hairs on your head are numbered by him-

And what use is that to anybody?
Small wonder the world is so messed up, if the Almighty is obsessed with irrelevant trivia instead of getting on with something useful.
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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby shootist » Thu May 04, 2017 8:22 am

There is far more logic in the proposition that God is inherently and infinitely evil and created the universe the way it is in order to be able to enjoy the pain and suffering of all who live in it. Like all bad people, he explains that he really is the good guy.
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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby Voldemort » Thu May 04, 2017 8:40 am

preacherman wrote:
shootist wrote:Preacherman, you seem to have avoided my query on the Koran fitting all of your requirements for evidence value, and indeed theoretically better than the Bible.


the koran was written by one man, Mohammed known as the founder of islam born in mecca lived and worked as a merchant.we must first examine the origins of his revelations and of the Koran and ask ourselves how he arrived at his concept of God, to be exact Allah. Mohammed named god, Allah. whereas In the Bible God told Moses I AM that I AM.

Mohammed gave this name Allah to this one god in whom he now believed after he had a so called revelation through the angel Gabriel. This came after he had contact with Jews and Christians and had heard about there being one true God, as a pose to the many gods that were worshiped. up to about 40 years of age he was a pagan.The name Allah in pre-islamic Arabia seems to have been a special deity as distinguished from numerous other (lesser) tribal gods. It is known that everywhere the Arabic language was spoken the name Allah was used to distinguish the supreme deity from others. Often it was used in association with the sun god, the personification of sun worship.

Mohammad is said to have had his revelations in a state of ecstasy, breaking out in a strong sweat and hearing a deafening clang as he fell to the ground. He had approached the Jews saying he was the last prophet, but they rejected that, then it seems the koran appeared. This time the Angel Gabriel was giving a different message, how can the Angel Gabriel declare Jesus as the son of God to the Jews but not to Mohammad.

so for evidence value, I much more prefer a straight statement (s) from a fellow human being, after many years of history, and prophets foretelling events to come, now past, that I can look upon and judge for myself: 'We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life' 1 John 1.

'But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed' (Isaiah 53:5) (700 years or so before it occurred).


'Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water' (john 19;34).

The problem here is that your knowledge on Islam and perhaps other religions as well, seems to have originated from Christian Evangelical websites/sources - that by their very nature seek to discredit other beliefs by propagating myths.

The moon/sun god thing is a well known Christian Evangelical myth and has been clearly discredited by anyone caring to look. In reality Islam considers the god of all Abrahamic religions as one and the same whether they are called Yahweh, Allah or God.

Therefore to answer Shootist’s question you probably need a wider source of knowledge. That also raises an interesting question - would you automatically dismiss any evidence, no matter how irrefutable that went against your Christian beliefs?
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Re: A(nother) christian party leader

Postby diy » Thu May 04, 2017 9:59 am

For Christians, particularly evangelical Christians, it is very important for them not to misinterpret or misrepresent the "word" as they call it. Do not confuse biblical references as preaching. They aren't specifically preaching, they are quoting their sources in the same way as an academic would quote other studies. You may reject their source as you might reject any religious text as is your right.

Regarding the recognition of other gods as the same gods by other religions or a false god. Its easy to be too broad here, e.g. "christianity says..". There are plenty of examples that refer to Christians and jews as Kafir, just as there are christians who think other religions are evil. There are also plenty that suggest they may be treated in a way that any reasonable person could sum up as persecution or hatred. Clearly many Muslims do not think other religions should be attacked, as do many other faiths. But you cannot say a religion says.., when clearly not all people who claim to follow it agree with you.

I personally can't abide this hatred or ridicule of people that have different beliefs however daft they might seem, particularly those who have faith themselves. As long as they aren't bothering anyone what's the deal? I get that is at odds with some teachings, but we all have to deal with that and accept their rights in world where people have different views.
My suggestions are not legal advice
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