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Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

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Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby Rich721 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:14 am

Hello everyone, I'm new here, Found this community while googling and thought I'd Pop in for a chat. :D

As the Title Says, Supervising a learner with a (Close to) 30,000 Miles driving experience in just 16 Months.
The nearing 30,000 Driver in this case is also nearing 30 Years old, having taken an interest in driving much later than average.

It may be immediately clear to some that I have just presented a contradiction of intent in the Road Traffic Acts "Three Year" Supervising Legislation designed to increase the standard of supervision to learners.

From Official Figures, References listed below, the average Three Year Legal Supervisor is likely to be:
Around 25 Years Old and having driven around 6,072 Miles total since passing there practical test.
I find this to be on the ball mark from my own inquiries, It will vary for others.

Now this sets the nearing 30,000 Mile driver ahead in experience by Five Times that of the average Three Year Learner.
Clearly it was not the intent of the legislation to create such a situation as to criminalize an experienced driver with five times the Road Experience of the average Three Year driver from supervising a learner, but the opposite, to prevent an inexperienced novice from supervising a learner until they have gained the experience that an average person can expect to gain in there first Three Years.

To delve more deeply into this, I will present a recent situation of a learner and who is Legal to Supervise:
Friend 1 & 2: Age 22-25, 4,000-5,000 Miles Total, Rarely straying from the Same short Familiar Routes to Uni, Work, Shops.
Friend 3: Around 1,200 Miles Total, Mostly within the past 6 Months and just passed the 3 Years.
Relative: Not driven for over 30 Years due to Anxiety after a minor collision, Anxious but willing to supervise.

Clearly the learner would be best supervised by someone who has an actual and clearly greater road experience covering close to 30,000 Miles.
And placing a Driver with a higher level of experience beside the learner is in fact the actual intent of the legislation itself.

Now having encountered this, I find myself most curious as to any cases and have become quite keen to learn of any case law covering such a situation, or if the situation is that the CPS would simply not pursue a case to criminalize someone in such a scenario given the quite obvious contradiction of the legislation intent? especially if great effort has been made to ensure that the insurance held is not invalidated by the wording of the insurance policy or by the failings in the wording of the legislation to achieve its intent without contradiction.

Many Thanks,
John

References:
The department of Transports: Facts on Young Drivers April 2014
On the first Page, Under: How Far Do They Drive?
Official figures stating: 2,024 Miles Year under 25, and 4,659 Miles Year on average for those older.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s-2012.pdf

Average age of candidates passing their car practical driving test
Gives us a general average of the average newly qualified driver passing there test at 22-23 Years old.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 31112a.pdf
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Re: Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby atticus » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:20 am

Isn't the starting point what the law actually requires? Do you tick that box?
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Re: Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby Rich721 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:50 am

I suppose it really does depend on your interpretation of the starting point, I'm just a Member of the Public without much actual experience with the law, just a curiosity that Peaks every now and again as is the case in this situation,
I am the driver who has amassed close to 30,000 Miles in the past 16 Months and have developed my own defensive driving due to a number of experiences I have come across which lead me to become quite attached to the idea of supervising a close friend to steer them away from accidents and harm on the roads while also imparting them a good level of safety.

I wouldn't tick the box of having Three Years pass by, but I would tick the box of having met and surpassed the starting point of intended experience... This is why I find the subject so interesting after coming up against the "Three Years" wording and finding myself with a great interest as to any case law and how the Gears of Justice would function in this situation. Could you share any light on this?

Many Thanks,
John
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Re: Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby atticus » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:19 am

John

Do you meet the legal requirements? Yes or No? The law is that simple.
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Re: Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby shootist » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:39 am

Rich721 wrote:...developed my own defensive driving due to a number of experiences I have come across which lead me to become quite attached to the idea of supervising a close friend to steer them away from accidents and harm on the roads while also imparting them a good level of safety.


And how do you know that your 'defensive driving' system is actually any good at all? Given the standard of driving on the roads today, you may just have been lucky so far. And, of course, nobody will admit to being possessed of a standard of driving that is below average, let alone poor.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death my right to be offended by it."
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Re: Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby atticus » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:14 pm

The law (quoted from the AA website)*:

Rules for supervisors
By law, a supervising driver must:

- be at least 21 years old
- hold a full EC/EEA licence for that type of vehicle (including manual or automatic)
- have held their licence for at least three years
- ensure there is insurance covering the learner in the car being driven
- clearly display 'L' plates on the back and front of the car

Supervising drivers are breaking the law if they:

- are over the drink-drive limit
- speak (handheld) on their mobile or text
- fall asleep
- fail to wear glasses, if they need these when driving themselves


If you do not meet those requirements you will be breaking the law, John.

* I cannot yet find the source legislation.
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Re: Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby Rich721 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:26 am

shootist wrote:And how do you know that your 'defensive driving' system is actually any good at all? Given the standard of driving on the roads today, you may just have been lucky so far. And, of course, nobody will admit to being possessed of a standard of driving that is below average, let alone poor.


Haha shootist, I agree, the standard on the roads, from my experience yesterday is significantly lacking..

At my friends request yesterday I accompanied her with a legal supervisor, to my great sadness... I had to sit in the back & watch. :cry:
I then immediately regretted it as I watched the legal supervisor simply rush them out of a junction with extremely poor visibility with no guidance of worth to be found, and proceed to encourage them to speed along the 10MPH speed humped road and past the six or more junctions to a divided car park on the left giving zero consideration to road users wishing to emerge from junctions where there line of sight is blocked. And who may well chuck there front end out into our path a little to quickly without warning to be able to see a thing.

This was followed by, to my great dissatisfaction, the legal supervisor completely fail to give any of the teaching I wanted to give, and instead I spent time bitterly watch the instructor...
Failing to leave adequate space to brake, Slow in time for lights or use the mirrors properly.
Failing to stop at a Rural Stop Sign with limited visibility.
Failing to observe the speed limit.
Failing to give adequate room to approaching vehicles in narrow roads.
Failing to instruct to give a cyclist a wide berth.
Failing to leave room ahead for cars to merge on a 40MPH Restricted dual carriageway where the left lane becomes a Left Only lane resulting in a driver noticing too late, indicating, having nowhere to go and illegally using the Left only lane to go ahead, cutting us up and narrowly avoiding getting clipped in the rear end..
Failure to observe the fact that if you've found yourself in the wrong lane in a que at a multi-lane roundabout you can just go round the roundabout and take your exit instead of trying to push in-front of someone on the left while blocking everyone behind you!!!.
Acting like it was ok to make a right turn in a Full car park at a tight 90 Degree corner using all of the road with no caution leaving no room for any vehicle waiting to, or already moving to turn left without any visibility.
Failing to allow drivers already reversing out of bays in car parks to do so, instead squeezing past while they struggle with visibility. Thankfully they bothered to look behind them in time to break.
Failing to use a nicely signed passing place for a very large piece of farming equipment. Instead instructing to just continue, but move to the side a little...
Failing to exercise caution at a misleadingly visible junction.
Failing until I requested they stop for a driver reversing from a bay who's visibility was completely blocked by vans at either side.
Failing to slow for an oncoming overtaking car doing so dangerously.
Failing to observe the fact a car at speed was most likely to overtake a cyclist much to close to us in a manner requiring her to slow down after it negotiated a bend and accelerated aggressively.

Now I care about this person and I want to teach her how I have shaped my own behavior on the roads before she develops bad habits that may remain with her for life. All of these are areas I wanted to instill a high level of instructed understanding of, in a controlled, Pre-paced, professional, well instructed and enjoyable way, resulting in a greater level of consideration and behavior on the roads.. So unsurprisingly I found it to be completely dissatisfactory. However, it was upon the supervisor failing to recognize worn slow markings in the road and allowing her to simply speed past signs indicating that we were about to go over a narrowed hump bridge with dead ground at the other side at more than 40MPH.. a Very Dangerous situation on a road I know can conceal Transit Vans from view while just meters away from a fatality that I was forced to fully command my friend to slow and take notice the first time.

There then came a second time, while driving down an "Empty.." country lane.. Now people walk dogs, jog and cycle there, kids even play there, and at this time of year you have bramble pickers and Heavy Farming Activity that materializes itself with large chunks of hard or a layer of slippery mud in some dangerous places,.. plowing machinery at the roadside, with pretty dangerous equipment to strike at any speed hanging off of the back of and either side of tractors. Preventing them from giving adequate passing space because the the machinery catches boundary walls & hedgerows. I advised caution and that they should turn the radio down and crack the window a little.. I was met by his objection because of the smell outside...

It was then while observing a complete lack of useful guidance, before my friend could recognize a sharp corner coming up and begin to slow.., he decided to give an instruction, "I would move in to the right here on this tight bend, so that you can get around it, especially at speed..." on a blind corner..

I immediately contradicted it and instructed my friend to slow, and wait at an appropriate spot to give way, I asked the supervisor, is there anyone coming, He said, "No", Followed by "I don't think so.." I said did you check, he said, "There's a bush.." I asked whats that, He said, "A car", as it struggled around the corner aggressively accelerating before hitting a number of bumps in the road, bouncing and scraping the underside of its bumper across the ground... down the exact path he had just instructed my friend to take after failing to look as I did through the bush on approach.. I then informed her how I would negotiate that corner, how I'd use the hedge to see through. And then helped her supervisor identify natural looking speed humps with no markings which bounce you at even slow speeds and lengthen any braking time, the damage to the surface of the road, the amount of rubber on the road, a Bent sign, and marks indicative someone couldn't stop in time for the ditch, let alone a car coming around the corner towards them, and his response was.. "So, People like to race around here.. Everyone does it.." Completely ignoring the fact that clearly, You cannot blindly use that corner in the way he just instructed my friend to...My friend then warned other road users and anyone walking a dog politely with the horn, moved around the corner hugging the left at a reasonable speed to have the most visibility and leave the most room for oncoming cars after looking through the hedge at the road as it sweeps around for anyone coming, safely.

It was an absolute nightmare to say the least....

atticus wrote:The law (quoted from the AA website)*:

Rules for supervisors
By law, a supervising driver must:

- be at least 21 years old
- hold a full EC/EEA licence for that type of vehicle (including manual or automatic)
- have held their licence for at least three years
- ensure there is insurance covering the learner in the car being driven
- clearly display 'L' plates on the back and front of the car

Supervising drivers are breaking the law if they:

- are over the drink-drive limit
- speak (handheld) on their mobile or text
- fall asleep
- fail to wear glasses, if they need these when driving themselves


If you do not meet those requirements you will be breaking the law, John.

* I cannot yet find the source legislation.


Many thanks atticus, I believe it was an addition to the Road Traffic act in 1980 or 1988, and it would be in relation to who can be a legal supervisor of a learner, and the offense being Otherwise than in accordance with a license.
It may well be the case however, that I simply cannot act as a supervisor, and as such cannot be prosecuted except with deception as to the status of my driving history to the learner, it could just be the learner that would be Driving Otherwise than in accordance with a license with no qualifying person present to act legally as a supervisor, Something I do not find acceptable without substantial case law to show there would be no prosecution, in which case I perhaps should be looking for any case history or CPS NIPI Decisions of a Learner driving under instruction of someone with experience above the average of those able to act as a supervisor after passing the Three Years....

I would absolutely appreciate, even if just to satisfy my curiosity, to learn of any such case laws or CPS decisions not to prosecute with them having not found it to be within the public interest.

I however understand It would be illegal, even if possibly only for the learner, and due to the fact that I have enjoyed teaching immensely to great satisfaction and joy what little can be taught on a small plot of private land previously, I am likely to pursue a career in this in the future. I find it unwise to risk prosecution, however strongly I feel through the absolute hurt, distress and depression I have experienced at the potential criminalization of myself, or as may be, just my friend, meaning that I must forgo pursuing and experiencing something I draw a great deal of enjoyment from with a much less experienced legal supervisor doing an extremely poor job in my place of her unpaid learning.. and any pursuit of a career is to be placed on pause, due to what genuinely appears to be either a strong lack of foresight & moral consideration for the rare case of an individual strongly wishing to supervise while surpassing the experience level clearly targeted by the law by many times the average drivers gestation time, or the inability to make attempt at improving the standard of supervision in any way other than to make the presumption of experience over time simply having elapsed with the obvious flaws of not achieving its goal with the unpracticed or dormant driver, and contradicting its original intent of preventing the inexperienced driver from supervising, in favor of someone with a greater level of experience on the roads, or, as is true in this case, creating the complete contradiction of it's intent and having a lessor experienced, even if legal supervisor beside the learner.
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Re: Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby diy » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:24 am

I used to teach advanced motorcyclists, including police riders, I also used to drive in excess of 50,000 miles a year. I will start by saying in general those who had most recently passed their motorcycle test, typically required less work to bring them up to the standard of the advanced test. In general they hadn't had time to learn bad habits, had been taught well by good instructors, were up to date on traffic rules and were more comfortable on current high power motorbikes than those who had passed their test many years before and not ridden much since.

Having said that miles is no substitute for experience and experience no substitute for learning. If you want to get in to this properly, why not have a go at preparing for an advanced driving test, it doesn't cost much and the theory you cover will be good to help you point out any gaps you have.

Currently you must be over 21, have held a full license (on that vehicle class) for 3 years and be fit to drive.

I do not personally believe that someone with 30k driving/ and 16 months as a qualified driver is fit to supervise.

Remember that your driving test is nothing more than reaching a standard to continue to learn unsupervised. it doesn't get you anywhere near what is needed to be an approved driving instructor.
My suggestions are not legal advice
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Re: Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby atticus » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:26 am

The OP is likely to be committing an offence himself if he acts as supervisor to a learner driver when he is not legally entitled to do so.

I also think the OP is in danger of thinking way too much. KISS.

Is he acting as a suprvisor?

Does he meet the criteria for acting as a supervisor?

If the answer to the first is Yes, and to the second No, he commits an offence and that is all he needs to know, whether or not his opinion of himself is justified.
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Re: Supervising learner after 30,000 Miles within 16 Months

Postby diy » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:38 pm

You nailed it in your first reply:

He does not meet the requirement. 16 months is not 3 years.

Both learner and supervisor commit an offence, unless the supervisor can prove he wasn't supervising, in which case the learner is on his own.

The bit you were struggling to find was : Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/88
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999 ... on/17/made

In addition since the OP is subject to the new drivers act (probably, though its not clear if he held another class of license before) he may well find he ends up back a learner himself given the risk of getting 6 points.
My suggestions are not legal advice
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