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Bouncer took ID

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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby tph » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:02 pm

I think approaching the local paper would be a recommended course of action.

The difference in the example you provide is that I am sure that you would inform your colleague that you have their phone and make arrangements to return it to them at the earliest convience.

This does not appear to be the case here. Having unlawfully taken the passport the bouncer has taken no action to establish whether or not it is counterfeit and are refusing to return it when requested.

For all the OP knows it has been sold on the black market.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby atticus » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:07 pm

Sorry, tp, but I think stoaty makes a good point.
Smouldering Stoat wrote:Not necessarily. A person commits theft if he dishonestly appropriates the property of another with the intention permanently to deprive that person of his property. A person acting under an honest but mistaken belief that he is lawfully entitled to do so is not guilty that offence. That might be the case if, for example, he believed that he had power to confiscate it in order to prevent a crime from being committed.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby tph » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:23 pm

The recent case of the woman convicted of stealing a £20 that she found on a shop floor would suggest otherwise.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:18 pm

No, it wouldn't.

That's this case. First, the defendant in that case pleaded guilty so there were no findings by the court. But the facts of the case are different: she didn't have an honest but mistaken belief that she had legal authority to take the money. Her potential defence was under s2(1)(c):

2“Dishonestly”

(1)A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest—

[...]

(c)(except where the property came to him as trustee or personal representative) if he appropriates the property in the belief that the person to whom the property belongs cannot be discovered by taking reasonable steps.


So if I were to find twenty quid in the street, I'd not be dishonest because I'd have a belief that the owner couldn't be found using reasonable steps. In this case, the money was dropped in a shop and the owner could presumably have been found using the CCTV that was eventually used to identify the thief. I say presumably because, in the absence of a trial, some of the facts are unclear.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby tph » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:57 pm

The lady in question has suggested that she thought she was entitled to keep the money on the basis of finders keepers.

Going back to the original post and as I stated earlier. The person who has sized the passport has not taken reasonable steps to establish whether it is indeed fake so that in can be returned to the owner if it is not.

As an aside. If the passport or in your example the phone is subsequently 'lost' in you view does that change whether or not an offence has been committed?
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:12 pm

"Finders keepers" is what 2(1)(c) is all about. It is neither here nor there whether the bouncer has taken reasonable steps, though we may observe that the OP says he was asked the kind of questions that one might expect to be asked if someone were trying to ascertain whether the passport belonged to him.

In any event, it is quite straightforward to find the owner of a passport. Here she is:

liz.jpg
liz.jpg (7.14 KiB) Viewed 277 times


Sorry, but trying to deal with this as theft is a dead end.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby tph » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:19 pm

There is a difference between finding something and taking something.

So you are saying that if I open a shop that changes foreign currency and you walk in with $1000 dollars to change into pounds. I can seize your money on the belief that it is counterfeit and retain for as long as I wish without committing any form of criminal offence?
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby Spankymonkey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:24 pm

Going back to the OP's original question, even if the document was a forgery, which the OP assures us it was not, the Bouncer had no authority to seize it. The fraud act does not provide for citizens seizing items they suspect are forgeries, nor can I think of any statute that does.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby tph » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:30 pm

Spankymonkey wrote:Going back to the OP's original question, even if the document was a forgery, which the OP assures us it was not, the Bouncer had no authority to seize it. The fraud act does not provide for citizens seizing items they suspect are forgeries, nor can I think of any statute that does.


Exactly.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby shootist » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:43 pm

The bouncer may well have had grounds to seize the passport if he suspected it was fake. I do not believe there is any theft at this time. He, or his employers then have a duty to deal with the manner expediently. If they retain the passport unnecessarily then they risk a possible charge of theft as the retention may become dishonest by virtue of the passport being unusable when required, i.e. on the forthcoming holiday. This may count as being permanently deprived of the passport for that time it was required. The OP should attend the premises ASAP with further proof if identity and a written complain that also demands the immediate return of the passport and advising of possible action to claim the costs for the holiday.

As far as a realistic prospect of the crime being recorded is remote, and the chances of the police taking any action whatever is of lottery jackpot winning proportions, I am saddened to say.
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