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Bouncer took ID

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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:54 pm

tph wrote:There is a difference between finding something and taking something.


The words "finding" and "taking" do not appear in the definition of theft.

So you are saying that if I open a shop that changes foreign currency and you walk in with $1000 dollars to change into pounds. I can seize your money on the belief that it is counterfeit and retain for as long as I wish without committing any form of criminal offence?


It depends upon whether you do so with dishonest intent. If you dishonestly appropriate my currency with the intention permanently to deprive me of my property, then you are guilty of theft. If you act honestly but mistakenly, then you are not guilty of theft because you do not have the mens rea. Under these circumstances, it would be a civil matter. It would be a remarkable situation if a person could not withdraw currency which he genuinely believed to be counterfeit.

Whether a person is guilty of theft or not is best determined by comparing the facts with the definition in the Act. But if you were correct, which you aren't, how would it help the OP? He's hardly going to be able to go on holiday after PC Plod has informed the Passport Agency of the theft of the passport, and the passport itself is stuffed in an evidence bag for months.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby shootist » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:35 pm

Theft by finding, finders keepers etc.

It's just theft. In the case of the woman who picked up the £20 note, firstly, it was someone else's property. A reasonable person might assume that the owner might miss it and make enquiries at the shop to see if it had been found. If she chose to retain the note she could have informed the shop owner that it had been found and leave her name and address, or informed the police when she had a chance to, thus removing the element of dishonesty. By keeping the note she had appropriated the property. Not telling anyone about it suggests she had acted dishonestly (or she could have simply forgot she had picked it up or forgot to inform anyone, although a court might find it difficult to accept such a tale. It's rare to find £20 notes laying around and you might well remember finding one) Not reporting the find might also suggest the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it.

OTOH, if she had found a pound coin it may be assumed that there is little likelihood of anyone reporting it and keep it for herself. I think there is a case on this but can't be sure of it's exact conclusion.

Her biggest mistake was not having a solicitor when the attended a police interview, whether informally or formally. I do quite believe her when she says she was misled by them.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby tph » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:36 pm

I am pretty sure that if the OP turned up with the police and demanded the return of the passport the matter would be resolved very quickly.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby Spankymonkey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:39 pm

shootist wrote:The bouncer may well have had grounds to seize the passport if he suspected it was fake.


It's not his grounds for seizing the passport I'm questioning. It has already been established why he seized it. The question is, what law empowers him to do so?


shootist wrote:OTOH, if she had found a pound coin it may be assumed that there is little likelihood of anyone reporting it and keep it for herself.


The police may very well disagree with you.

http://www.newspostleader.co.uk/news/po ... -1-6711267
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:59 pm

Spankymonkey wrote:
shootist wrote:The bouncer may well have had grounds to seize the passport if he suspected it was fake.


It's not his grounds for seizing the passport I'm questioning. It has already been established why he seized it. The question is, what law empowers him to do so?


What law prevents him from doing so? We've established it's not theft. Show me a crime that's been committed.

shootist wrote:OTOH, if she had found a pound coin it may be assumed that there is little likelihood of anyone reporting it and keep it for herself.


The police may very well disagree with you.

http://www.newspostleader.co.uk/news/po ... -1-6711267


But the circumstances of finding someone else's change left in a self-service machine, and finding a pound coin on the ground, are not the same. Shootist is correct that reasonable steps to find the owner of a small sum are different from those to find the owner of a large sum. But under the specific circumstances of a self-service checkout, finding the owner of the money is much easier.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:00 pm

tph wrote:I am pretty sure that if the OP turned up with the police and demanded the return of the passport the matter would be resolved very quickly.


I'm pretty sure it would be resolved very quickly if he turned up with the SAS, the Brigade of Guards or the US Seventh Fleet, but none of those things is going to happen either.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby shootist » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:19 pm

Spankymonkey wrote:
shootist wrote:OTOH, if she had found a pound coin it may be assumed that there is little likelihood of anyone reporting it and keep it for herself.


The police may very well disagree with you.

http://www.newspostleader.co.uk/news/po ... -1-6711267


The police, like Marmite, always disagrees with me. The question is whether a court would disagree with me.

Every element of theft must be proven in order to convict. If I really believe that there is no chance of tracing the owner of a £1 coin found in a public place, and I certainly do believe that is a reasonable assumption, then there is no dishonesty in appropriating the property. Neither would I intend depriving the owner of it. Should a verifiable owner come forward they can have their pound back by all means.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby Spankymonkey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:23 pm

Smouldering Stoat wrote:What law prevents him from doing so? We've established it's not theft. Show me a crime that's been committed.


Keep your hair on Stoat. I didn't suggest the bouncer had committed a crime did I. I merely asked if he had lawful cause to seize it.

Maybe the OP can have a good old dig through the Interference with Goods Act to see if it contravenes any of the provisions in that.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby tph » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:32 pm

shootist wrote:Every element of theft must be proven in order to convict. If I really believe that there is no chance of tracing the owner of a £1 coin found in a public place, and I certainly do believe that is a reasonable assumption, then there is no dishonesty in appropriating the property. Neither would I intend depriving the owner of it. Should a verifiable owner come forward they can have their pound back by all means.


The trick with finding any money is to claim you lost it before you could hand it in.
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Re: Bouncer took ID

Postby tph » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:53 pm

Back on topic, the OP at find page 26 onwards of the attached document interesting to read;

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... idance.pdf
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