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Charity Cut Price Sale.

Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:05 pm

dls wrote:
If the guess is not correct, then there still remains the question of the underpriced sale.


What underpriced sale. You are guessing.


In what way am I guessing? I know the price it was sold for and I know people who would have paid more for it.
But that still leaves the question of what might be done about the original transfer, which appears to have been done without lawful authority or just cause.


You have not established that.

If you check the emphasis, then I think you will find that I have.
Perhaps you can suggest why, when asked for the legal basis for their claim, charity B chose to threaten and harass the village rather than simply state the legal basis?
They spent £17k on legal fees, most of which was presumably looking for one.
Or why the formal review by the Charity commission found no record of any legal basis and have not yet come back with one despite an assurance some time ago they would find out.

The Land Registry appear to have registered the transfer on the basis of a letter from the Charity Commission that expresses no more than an opinion (I have a copy if you think it important).
There may be a legal basis for the transfer, but it appears there is not: I think that is enough to warrant a discussion, if only on the question of how one might go about proving that something does not exist, if that is what would be required.
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Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby dls » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:03 pm

The Land Registry appear to have registered the transfer on the basis of a letter from the Charity Commission that expresses no more than an opinion


No. There will be a certificate as part of the application to register the transfer.

That somebody else might have paid more does not establish that it was sold in any way improperly.
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Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:21 pm

dls wrote:
The Land Registry appear to have registered the transfer on the basis of a letter from the Charity Commission that expresses no more than an opinion


No. There will be a certificate as part of the application to register the transfer.

I don't doubt that there should have been a certificate, but as far as I am aware there was not one; if they had such a certificate, then for what purpose was the letter?
I'll check: would that certificate be provided in a Land Registry document request?

That somebody else might have paid more does not establish that it was sold in any way improperly.

Are they not required to get the best price reasonably obtainable?
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Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby dls » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:27 pm

There cannot not have been a certificate. It is pat of the application. That you have not seen it means nothing.

Are they not required to get the best price reasonably obtainable?

Which is no guarantee that there is not someone who might have paid more, and a sale is not at all undermined by the existence of such a person.
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Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby Hairyloon » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:50 pm

dls wrote:There cannot not have been a certificate. It is pat of the application.

What is this certificate that there cannot have not been? Is it something that is not forthcoming from a document request from the Land Registry?
That you have not seen it means nothing.

If it should have been provided in document request and was not, then that would appear to mean something.

Could it be that there is no certificate because there was not a transfer of the title, it remaining vested with the Official Custodian, only a transfer of the control of the title?

Are they not required to get the best price reasonably obtainable?

Which is no guarantee that there is not someone who might have paid more, and a sale is not at all undermined by the existence of such a person.

Actively avoiding seeking such a person does not seem to me compliant with the obligations on a charity.
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Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby dls » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:30 am

In the one breath you talk of the transfer at HMLR and on the next you deny one
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Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:25 am

dls wrote:In the one breath you talk of the transfer at HMLR and on the next you deny one

I am not entirely clear how things work when property is held by the Official Custodian, but there was a transfer of the trust and there is a record of that at the Land Registry. I'll see if I can get a copy of the documents.
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Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby dls » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:52 am

The Land Registry records are intended only to show who are the owners of the legal title. If the land is held on trust, the registers show that only indirectly. That fact that it was held for charitable purpose would be reflected in a restriction. HMLR have no interest in the terms or beneficiaries of a trust, and do not record them. I think you are looking to them for something they do not (and should not) have.
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Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:06 am

The relevant point here is that that letter, expressing no more than an opinion, is the closest we have been given to a legal basis for the transfer.
There is presumably now a certificate lodged with HMLR authorising the transfer from charity B to the developer, it may be worth obtaining that, but it still does not answer the issue over the transfer to that charity.
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Re: Charity Cut Price Sale.

Postby dls » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:17 am

No. The certificate is one that the transferring charity (IF there has been a transfer - you have lost me as to whether there is one) has complied with the Charities Acts. Documents may be lodged in support of such a certificate, but HMLR are _not_ interested in the details.
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