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Builder taking decisions without authority

Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby blig » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:56 pm

I'd consider finding a totally different electrican to test the electrics and issue a NICEIC certificate for the whole kitchen area. It may put the original poster's mind at rest.
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Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby diy » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:30 am

Since this is England not wales - Kitchens aren't notifiable work. But the work must still comply with Part P of the building regulations. When you pay someone whether a certified electrician or competent person do to do electrical work for you there are certain things you need to help you prove in the future that you complied with Part P.

Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) - this says what was done and confirms it was in accordance with the standards.
Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate (MEIWC) as above
Electric Installation Condition Report (EICR) - this is used where a person conducted a test to confirm the safety of something.

links here:
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-regulations/forms/

Your builder should have supplied you with something resembling an EIC/MEIWC, if you paid the proper electrician , he should have supplied an EIC/MEIWC & an EICR confirming the tests done on to conclude that your electrics weren't safe. If you haven't paid the proper electrician, then its not for him to issue paperwork.

If you rent this property out and you have an old wired fuse box like this:
Image
Then you really should priorise a full consumer unit upgrade and potential re-wire. Wired fuses are pretty dangerous with today's electrical loads.
At the very least a modern consumer unit will give you residual current device protection which should trip well before a person has had a lethal shock
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Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:13 pm

diy wrote:Since this is England not wales - Kitchens aren't notifiable work.

Since we are here, what work is notifiable?
If you rent this property out and you have an old wired fuse box like this:
Image
Then you really should priorise a full consumer unit upgrade and potential re-wire.

Is there any reason to suppose that a re-wire is needed?
Aside from an old fuse box indicating older wiring, unless it is very old, I don't think that is necessarily a problem.
And a consumer unit is more or less just a straight swap for a fusebox isn't it? Ought not cost a massive amount.
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Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby diy » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:29 pm

The list of notifiable work is pretty long. Its basically any new circuits (that isn't an extension to an existing or spur from an existing) anything in a wet location (but thats not kictchens in England) and replacement of consumer units etc. If you use a registered person, who will have been properly certified, they can self certify its all online now and linked to the house.

If you want to DIY then you have to get building control involved to verify the works. or find an electrician willing to certify and test your work.

I said potentially rewire - the consumer unit is the big safety improvement as its gives much better safety control. However, a proper sparks will test everything as part of the sign off and the chances of your 70 year old cabling failing is pretty high. For a rental where I'd consider I had a greater duty of care and increased risk of people not knowing the quirks of my set-up I'd probably do it the wiring as a part of a refurb.

Having said all that - I had 4 qualified sparks try to wire my induction hob and it was me who got it working due to my slightlly obscure knowledge of exotic computer servers. I spotted it had twin live feed.
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Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby steve » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:31 am

This is England, and there is a new socket. One has been installed under the sink for the dishwasher to plug into. This has been taken off the cooker wiring.


Now it is clear that the dishwasher is plugged into a new socket, this sounds reasonably safe to me assuming the cabling and the consumer unit fuse is up to running both cooker and another 13 amp socket. The dishwasher's plug includes its own fuse which protects the dishwasher.

However, it is still notifiable, so take diy's advice.
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Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby diy » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:51 pm

Sorry, we haven't established what the "cooker" is and how the cooker circuit is cabled. To connect a 2.5mm standard socket "spur" cable directly to a 6mm 32amp cooker circuit without adequate fusing would not be allowed under BS7671:2008. As the 2.5mm cable to the socket is not adequately protected from overload current and has a maximum rating of around 23-25amps. Therefore such an approach cannot be legally signed off under part P of the building regulations.

Its the householder that picks up the £5k fine for failure to notify//certify under part P
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Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby atticus » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:15 pm

Interesting legal discussion going on here.
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Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby diy » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:10 pm

shocking and rare in this place ;) get it - shocking? ;) ;)
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Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby steve » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:49 am

To connect a 2.5mm standard socket "spur" cable directly to a 6mm 32amp cooker circuit without adequate fusing would not be allowed under BS7671:2008


Yes it should be checked and corrected, but it is the same as a spur from any ring main socket that has a 32 amp MCB which should mean it is safe even if it may be illegal (or should that be "unlawful"? Discuss) to allow its use without it being signed off.
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Re: Builder taking decisions without authority

Postby Horticgirl » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:12 pm

Thanks for all the replies. The technical stuff is a bit beyond me but I can tell you the "cooker" is a built in oven (I think 13 amp) with a separate electric hob.

The electrician has now been and it seems that we need a new "bigger " earth wire and some sort of protection on the cold water stop tap. I will have more detail when we get the quote. The dishwasher will need a separate trip switch but as we are going for the new consumer unit it can be accommodated in that - I think! Hope it make sense.


As for the builder, I think we will be able to agree a small contribution from him, together with an agreement that he puts right any dismantling of the new kitchen that is required. For the time being he has wired in the dishwasher to a different socket and the electrician, who is NICEIC accredited is ok with that.
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