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What if?

Re: What if?

Postby shootist » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:40 am

Hairyloon wrote:I did briefly have hopes for Momentum: it was supposed to be a "grass roots" organisation and if it were answerable to those grass roots, then that could be a very good thing. But they failed the basic tests early on and have not improved. :(


But if they were answerable to the 'grass roots' then they would be a 'populist' organisation, which as every person who was intelligent enough to vote to remain in the EU knows, is a very bad thing indeed.
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Re: What if?

Postby atticus » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:08 pm

That post is based on a misunderstanding of populism. "Popular" might be a better term to have used.

A common feature of populist politicians or movements is the argument that "the people" are being exploited by a privileged elite which cares little for them.

That is not the same as being answerable to the grass roots. Indeed some populists do not have that accountability.
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Re: What if?

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:39 pm

There are also ways of being accountable other than the simple ballot.
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Re: What if?

Postby shootist » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:05 pm

Hairyloon wrote:There are also ways of being accountable other than the simple ballot.


Do tell. Mussolini ended up accountable to the grass roots. Are you suggesting such a system? I'd go for that in respect of Blair, for sure.
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Re: What if?

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:56 pm

shootist wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:There are also ways of being accountable other than the simple ballot.


Do tell. Mussolini ended up accountable to the grass roots. Are you suggesting such a system? I'd go for that in respect of Blair, for sure.


I'd suggest a properly structured discussion platform.
Perhaps that doesn't provide actual accountability, but it does give a good means to steer the direction the movement is going in.
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Re: What if?

Postby shootist » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:08 pm

Hairyloon wrote:I'd suggest a properly structured discussion platform.
Perhaps that doesn't provide actual accountability, but it does give a good means to steer the direction the movement is going in.


What an excellent idea. The people participating could be selected by people in a particular area to discuss things for them. These selected individuals could gather at a convenient location where they could all discuss important matters. What could be call such a place? Perhaps a 'Parliament'. I don't know where that word sprang from, but it sounds really good. The only problem I can see is that there will be no accountability whatever for those selected participants.
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Re: What if?

Postby Hairyloon » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:25 pm

shootist wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:I'd suggest a properly structured discussion platform.
Perhaps that doesn't provide actual accountability, but it does give a good means to steer the direction the movement is going in.


What an excellent idea. The people participating could be selected by people in a particular area to discuss things for them...

Why select them, when we have the technology for them to all engage in the discussion?
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Re: What if?

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:14 pm

The fact that we have the technology to do something doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

So far as the legislature is concerned, we have objectives which are competing and to an extent incompatible. Of course we need a legislature which is democratically accountable. But we also need one which is representative of society, and which has the expertise necessary to pass good law and to hold the executive to account. Experiments in mass democracy are interesting but (a) may struggle to engage the electorate (in which case it's not clear that they are actually democratic and representative) and (b) they separate the taking of a decision with accountability for the consequences.
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Re: What if?

Postby shootist » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Hairyloon wrote:Why select them, when we have the technology for them to all engage in the discussion?


That would be dangerously close to being a state of continual referendum and as we all know, losing a referendum requires the losing side to call the winners stupid, plus appropriate insults, while demanding a further referendum until they get the result they want. Based upon experience to date I would say that such a system would be a complete and continuous fuck up. Once is OK, if you win, at least in England and Wales. For Scotland and the EU, it seems you have to keep going until the people in charge get the result they demand.
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Re: What if?

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:05 pm

That's a bit harsh on the losers of the 1975 referendum, shootist. I think you should apologise.
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