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Is civil war illegal?

Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby 3.14 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:21 pm

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Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby Hairyloon » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:32 pm

Good post, but we live in a supposedly enlightened age: we ought by now to have moved on from the philosophy that might is right and ought to be able to force our decisions without violence...
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Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby 3.14 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:34 pm

Hairyloon wrote:...to force our decisions without violence...
Force is violence. However it's mostly because there is no world government. Even then, it's decisions would have to be backed up by force, a police force etc.
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Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby Hairyloon » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:47 pm

3.14 wrote:Force is violence...

What stops you from floating off your chair if not the force of gravity? Is it violent?
However it's mostly because there is no world government. Even then, it's decisions would have to be backed up by force, a police force etc.

I am told that they prefer to be called the police service, and for the most part they keep order through the force of the law without resort to violence.
But most of the important decisions, particularly for a world government, would be about taxation and spending... I think it has been a while (in this country at least) since tax collectors had to go out with a big stick.
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Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby shootist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:20 am

Hairyloon wrote:Good post, but we live in a supposedly enlightened age: we ought by now to have moved on from the philosophy that might is right and ought to be able to force our decisions without violence...


We live in a supposedly enlightened age? What complete and utter twaddle. Of course we don't, look around you. Whether we ought to have moved on or not, a blind man on a galloping horse could see we haven't and are in no danger of doing so any time soon, or possibly ever. How on earth can we move on to force our decisions without violence? The bottom line of any attempt to force a decision is violence. The natural response to an unwelcome decision that affects another is "Make me." The post I have quoted is one that could only be considered viable by a rabidly insane blind and deaf fool with liberal delusions or a person who delights in starting pointless arguments or even bloody good (read:crap) rows.

And...

I am told that they prefer to be called the police service, and for the most part they keep order through the force of the law without resort to violence.


Whilst I acknowledge and thus hopefully pre-empt you cry of "But I said 'for the most part' ", The bottom line of just about any and every police enforcement action is "Or else." As such, the implied threat of violence is ever present, if unspoken, but acknowledged by anyone on the receiving end.

And

What stops you from floating off your chair if not the force of gravity? Is it violent?


Try jumping off the roof of a multi story car park and tell me that gravity isn't violent
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Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby Hairyloon » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:45 am

shootist wrote:Try jumping off the roof of a multi story car park and tell me that gravity isn't violent

When you were at school, did you try the defence of "I didn't hit him miss, he ran into my fist"? It is the same principle only backwards. Gravity is not violent, it is steady, regular and reliable.
Or to put it more succinctly: it is not the fall which hurts, but the sudden stop at the bottom.
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Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby diy » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:52 pm

Isn't that a coup d'état?

You have to start with the objective. The objective of a civil war is either to break away from the state, or overthrow a state. Normally those who don't like the way things are run, start with requests for change if that fails they, protest and or try to get democratically elected, so they may change things, failing that a coup to get control by stealth, if that fails either terrorism or civil war.

It really depends who you are and on what scale. One man's terrorist is an other's freedom fighter etc.

Then you look at "success" for one of those approaches, depending on the level of victory achieve they might:
- Negotiate an amnesty as part of a peace process -e.g NI
- change the law making the old regime illegal and the new regime lawful - e.g. Egypt
- create a new state

Hence - Its only illegal if you lose.
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Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby shootist » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:33 pm

diy wrote:Isn't that a coup d'état?

You have to start with the objective. The objective of a civil war is either to break away from the state, or overthrow a state. Normally those who don't like the way things are run, start with requests for change if that fails they, protest and or try to get democratically elected, so they may change things, failing that a coup to get control by stealth, if that fails either terrorism or civil war.

It really depends who you are and on what scale. One man's terrorist is an other's freedom fighter etc.

Then you look at "success" for one of those approaches, depending on the level of victory achieve they might:
- Negotiate an amnesty as part of a peace process -e.g NI
- change the law making the old regime illegal and the new regime lawful - e.g. Egypt
- create a new state

Hence - Its only illegal if you lose.


I don't know of any authorised definition but I recall several 'coup d'états' reported which were fait accomplis (Dear God, I'm turning French!) In other words there was no civil war. If there is a war then it wouldn't be a coup d'état until the 'revolutionary' side won. Any objective normally comes down to gaining power. The picture you pain is often just the publicity of the revolutionaries. IS has displayed such intentions, although they have displayed many other too.
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Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby diy » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:48 pm

Could the troubles in NI as they were be described as a civil war? two opposing sides regularly taking shots at each other - settlements included amnesty for many crimes.
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Re: Is civil war illegal?

Postby shootist » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:04 pm

diy wrote:Could the troubles in NI as they were be described as a civil war? two opposing sides regularly taking shots at each other - settlements included amnesty for many crimes.


I would say for sure it was a civil war, albeit conducted in a very low key, as far as civil wars go at any rate. They did a lot more than take pot shots at each other. Perhaps a civil insurrection might be a better term.
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