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Free Elections.

Re: Free Elections.

Postby Smouldering Stoat » Sun May 10, 2015 2:04 pm

...and some people vote for unsuccessful candidates.
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Re: Free Elections.

Postby atticus » Sun May 10, 2015 2:12 pm

The electorate in a constituency is not locked in until they have all agreed on one candidate. Inevitably some voters will vote for an unsuccessful candidate.
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Re: Free Elections.

Postby Millbrook2 » Sun May 10, 2015 5:55 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
ECHR Protocol 1, Article3 wrote:The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature.


Have the 5+ million who voted for UKIP and Green got free expression of their opinion in their choice of legislature?
What about all the people who felt obliged to vote tactically? Who can guess how many of those there might be?

If one was convinced that these answers were "no", what could be done? Could it be taken for a Judicial Review?


A clue Loon. The quote above covers an requirement and a process not the outcome.
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Re: Free Elections.

Postby Hairyloon » Sun May 10, 2015 6:30 pm

Yes, but the outcome demonstrates how badly the process meets the requirement.
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Re: Free Elections.

Postby atticus » Sun May 10, 2015 7:11 pm

Are you saying that something must be done?
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Re: Free Elections.

Postby Slartibartfast » Sun May 10, 2015 11:42 pm

I think we need to reconsider PR. The present system denies many voters a realistic voice, because they live in engineered 'safe seats' for one or another party. Gerrymandering of boundaries has gone on for years, and we need to break out of it.

A story is going around at present, I don't know the truth of it. It may be an allegory, but it illustrates a real problem -

It is said that during the French Revolution an assembly of 125 delegates could not reach a decision, and decided to split to 5 smaller groups of 25 delegates for a detailed discussion, and then compile their votes. One political clique arranged for it's members to be concentrated in 3 of the groups - 13 in each. Those groups voted Yes, by a majority of one. The three Yes groups outvoted the two No groups. And thus 39 "Yes" delegates were able to win a democratic vote against the 86 who voted "No".
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Re: Free Elections.

Postby Hairyloon » Mon May 11, 2015 12:06 am

Slartibartfast wrote:I think we need to reconsider PR.

"Reconsider" suggests that it has already been considered. When did that happen?
The present system denies many voters a realistic voice, because they live in engineered 'safe seats' for one or another party.

That is very much the point I was making (or one of them).

we need to break out of it.

We do. Have you any ideas as to how? The government will never allow it unless forced.
Even if the ECHR would consider that our system breaches protocol 1, it seems likely that we will have pulled out before we have a chance to put it before them.

It is said that during the French Revolution an assembly of 125 delegates could not reach a decision, and decided to split to 5 smaller groups of 25 delegates for a detailed discussion, and then compile their votes. One political clique arranged for it's members to be concentrated in 3 of the groups - 13 in each. Those groups voted Yes, by a majority of one. The three Yes groups outvoted the two No groups. And thus 39 "Yes" delegates were able to win a democratic vote against the 86 who voted "No".

Yet the general consensus of this board seems to believe that the opinion of those 86 has been freely expressed in that decision.
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Re: Free Elections.

Postby atticus » Mon May 11, 2015 5:29 am

That is not the consensus, and it is a total and utter distortion to say it is. You started this thread on a completely different question.

Would you like to start a thread on the merits of the first past the post system and whether an alternative is required?
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Re: Free Elections.

Postby Hairyloon » Mon May 11, 2015 7:41 am

atticus wrote:That is not the consensus, and it is a total and utter distortion to say it is. You started this thread on a completely different question.

Perhaps you would be good enough to explain how the allegorical fudged decision is so different from our gerrymandered constituencies?
Of the 650 seats, how many are neither safe, nor a con/lab marginal?
How is the opinion of the other 70% of the electors expressed in the choice of legislature?

Would you like to start a thread on the merits of the first past the post system..?

I am not aware that it has any.
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Re: Free Elections.

Postby atticus » Mon May 11, 2015 7:53 am

Perhaps you would be good enough to remind yourself of the question asked by the OP with which this thread began.

My point was that it is utterly wrong to say that a discussion on the question that was asked shows a consensus on a quite different question. You have shown yourself to be a past master at that kind of intellectual dishonesty.
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