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Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Employment and Discrimination Law

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby dls » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:07 pm

The lawmakers have sat down and amongst themselves agreed that there need tobe (at least)threedifferent categories - self-employed, worker and employee. The world is a complicated place, and there is a proper place for those distinctions. whether those distinctions are inexactly the right place, whether the definitions havesufficient clarity, and whether each classification carries all the appropriate rights is a very detailed question of fact.


Not knowing if your business is employing a low on-cost, pay-as-you-go "hired gun" or a long-term, build your business together, high on-cost employee is VERY serious.


does suggest a rather biased starting point.
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Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby YorkshireBloke » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:34 pm

Hi,

I'm experienced, not biased...

Some employers exploit vulnerable people; they should be punished, not simply for reasons of justice but to prevent lower cost employers driving out of business those who pay legitimate on-costs.

Would a simple "declaration of employment status", signed by employer and employee assist? Did Mr King REALLY feel he was always a worker? Really? Or did someone later (cleverly) work out his he could claim more brass than he had earned at the time?

Would such a "declaration" at least prevent unscrupulous employers hiring people on a self-employed basis while "suggesting" a worker or even employed relationship?

I'm really interested in the views of the many "lurkers" out there who look but don't "chip in their 10 pennuth" - this IS one of the most contentious area of employment law, surely we might have something to "bring to the party"?

Or shall we leave it to politicians whose main experience of hiring might be their wives or young party activists...

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Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby Hairyloon » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:05 am

dls wrote:
Not knowing if your business is employing a low on-cost, pay-as-you-go "hired gun" or a long-term, build your business together, high on-cost employee is VERY serious.


does suggest a rather biased starting point.

Does it?
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Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby donarebun » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:03 pm

YorkshireBloke wrote:Hi,



Would a simple "declaration of employment status", signed by employer and employee assist? Did Mr King REALLY feel he was always a worker? Really? Or did someone later (cleverly) work out his he could claim more brass than he had earned at the time?

Would such a "declaration" at least prevent unscrupulous employers hiring people on a self-employed basis while "suggesting" a worker or even employed relationship?
.

YB



I don't think so

The Law takes precedence over any contract/deal/whatever.

The Court looks at the relationship and determines what it is.

See Muscat v Cable and wireless especially para (45-46) I think.

Signing something would prevent most people from taking their employer to Court but a few would still take their employer nevertheless.

I would advocate signing but in reality, it wouldn't help.

Obviously, someone talked to Mr King (maybe a friend in similar situation or a lawyer he ran into)

if not he would have put in a claim long agooooo
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Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby YorkshireBloke » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:13 pm

Hi,

GOOD POINTS.

I agree that a Judge would "look through" the film-flam of words to the reality of the employment relationship, and that is the strength of our Common Law system (IMHO).

The idea is not "high end", just an attempt to force "task providers" to accurately describe the basis upon which they pay the "effort provider" 'coz I reccon many "employees" do not understand they are self-employed...

It wouldn't help everyone but it would help lots of folks I think.

Thoughts?

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Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby YorkshireBloke » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:44 pm

Hi,

Basically I'd like to "Bump" this and again invite comment, using the Excuse that King v Sash Window Workshop has (belatedly) reached the mainstream media (R4 etc) today.

Is this fair? Taking a job as self -employed, sticking it for 13 years then getting a lawyer to say you were a worker, thereby winning 12.07% on top of your "wages"?

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Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby atticus » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:17 pm

But the other side got a lawyer to say the opposite. Thereby they should have got a result.

I suspect that analysis of the facts and the law and careful legal argument might also have played a part in persuading the judges.
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Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby atticus » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:22 am

Having now read the judgment, it seems clear that this employer was of the type that imposes "self-employed" contracts on workers so as to avoid employment law and tax responsibilities. The workers get no say in the arrangement.

We are seeing numerous cases where the courts are redressing the balance.
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Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby Hairyloon » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:03 am

atticus wrote:Having now read the judgment, it seems clear that this employer was of the type that imposes "self-employed" contracts on workers so as to avoid employment law and tax responsibilities.

Does it make much difference on tax, other than who takes responsibility?
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Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby atticus » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:59 am

Yes. Employer's NIC, for example.
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