Discussing UK law. Links: swarb.co.uk | law-index | Acts | Members Image galleries

Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Employment and Discrimination Law

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby atticus » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:13 am

User avatar
atticus
 
Posts: 19873
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:27 pm
Location: E&W

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby atticus » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:57 am

I have just read a shocking report in the Guardian about what can only amount to theft of wages by some employers. The cost is estimated at £3,000,000,000 annually. This practice sits alongside the imposition of self-employed status.

We have a culture in this country where the benefits of economic growth are not being felt by a very large part of the population. It is a trickle-up economy in so many respects.

Here is the article.
User avatar
atticus
 
Posts: 19873
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:27 pm
Location: E&W

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby dls » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:11 am

I am sure that a lot of such behaviour does go on. To an extent also you see workers taking the mickey at work. I would distrust, however, the results of such research. I would need some proper convicing that the research didn't have its result wriien into the spec.
David Swarbrick (Admin) dswarb@gmail.com - 0795 457 9992
User avatar
dls
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12263
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:35 pm
Location: Brighouse, West Yorkshire

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby atticus » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:59 am

I am sure that you will be able to read the report and form your own judgement.
User avatar
atticus
 
Posts: 19873
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:27 pm
Location: E&W

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby YorkshireBloke » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:34 pm

Hi,

Should we consider what the (competing) points we want to reconcile?

1. Maximising protection for VULNERABLE staff/people.

2. Supporting enterprise

3. Reducing uncertainty and

4. Minimising transaction costs.


It seems that we don't have a system that maximises any. And even at a low level it doesn't balance them, favouring lowest costs perhaps?

Again, I welcome your thoughtful insights.

YB
YorkshireBloke
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:44 pm

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby steve » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:52 pm

DLS is very cynical about workers and unions attempting to exert workers' rights and reports about the wrongdoing of employers.

Unions have huge difficulties in getting access to casual workers, so they have to kick up a stink to attract such workers attention. There is nothing wrong with that. Workers have rights they are unaware of and the Unions are making them aware of those rights.

In terms of employers stealing from staff one of the biggest supermarkets has their pay office in a distant city at one time accessible only by an expensive phone number which was inefficiently answered. Overtime had to be signed off by managers who often refused to do so. Holiday pay was not automatically paid when you resigned. When my partner requested holiday pay after resignation the request was refused 3 months after the end of employment - so too late for an employment tribunal.

We are all familiar now with workers being searched in their own time, and searches taking excessively long times.

I am aware of a delivery company who told its drivers to clock off before the end of the day so as not to break working time rules - so doubly breaking the law.

We know of non-transparent methods of paying people via off-shore companies that result in those people being at risk of HMRC later pursuing them for NIC.

My BinLaw has at times worked for three well-known agencies, who all provide incomprehensible pay slips with no real dates, and do not pay holiday pay unless asked. One has a very complicated deduction that is made to look like an addition - I am pretty determined and good at working through complex arithmetic but it takes an hour or two to make sense of these pay slips.
steve
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:59 am

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby steve » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:56 pm

Separately, with respect to the employee who claimed holiday pay for 13 years, the grey areas of employment law have existed for decades. Any employer who employs within the grey area that is clearly outside the intention of the law should have been aware of the risk of their loop-hole jumping being ruled unlawful.
steve
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:59 am

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby Hairyloon » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:02 pm

steve wrote:Separately, with respect to the employee who claimed holiday pay for 13 years, the grey areas of employment law have existed for decades. Any employer who employs within the grey area that is clearly outside the intention of the law should have been aware of the risk of their loop-hole jumping being ruled unlawful.

Well said.
Take me to your lizard...
User avatar
Hairyloon
 
Posts: 10089
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:12 pm
Location: From there to here and here to there... Funny things are everywhere.

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby YorkshireBloke » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:42 pm

Hi Steve,

Agreed: well said. I have employed people, always honoured holidays, gave P45s etc, etc. Employers who have a business model that needs theft from staff haven't got a real business. Full stop.

But. The "worker" for Pimlico Plumbers pulled £500,000 in "pay" from the firm in three years, I understand. £500. Thousand. Pounds.

Do we mean that person is a vulnerable worker deserving the protection the law offers?

YB
YorkshireBloke
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:44 pm

Re: Employees, workers and Independent contractors

Postby atticus » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:26 pm

Steve will happily give you my ther examples. One extreme example is not a good basis for generalisation. Very many workers on "self-employed" terms take home really paltry sums. £. Really. Paltry.
User avatar
atticus
 
Posts: 19873
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:27 pm
Location: E&W

PreviousNext

Return to Employment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest